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Thread: Mace of Aggression help

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    Default Mace of Aggression help

    We had a student tonight ask about MOA
    I showed him the tech and told him the hows and whys and a little history

    Mace Of Aggression
    Attack: The opponent is standing in front of you executing a two-hand grab and pull to your lapels.
    Defense:
    1. From a natural stance, have your left hand check the opponent's two hands. Step forward with your right foot into a right neutral bow (11:00) as you deliver a right glancing hammerfist strike across the bridge of his nose.
    2. Continue the arcing motion of your right arm and execute an inward diagonal-downward forearm rake across the opponent's forearms. Continue the arc of your right arm through a transitional chamber along your right upper ribcage and complete the arc by executing a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the left side of the opponent's head.
    3. Chamber your right arm and hand towards your 7:30 angle and shuffle forward as you deliver a right outward horizontal elbow strike to the right side of the opponent's head.

    I was an a wkka guy before starting in this new club which is akla

    now my question and my students was is there an inverted punch in the technique? According to all the text I've read no, but everytime I see it, There is one.
    How many people out there besides myself throw in a uppercut or inverted punch to the opponents floating ribs after your foot stomp and counter grab? (before you hammer the nose)
    Or is that a wkka thing?

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    I do not do a punch and neither does the WKKA. Billy has a good story about this technique. Two words....devistating elbows. LOL.
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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by NickName99 View Post
    How many people out there besides myself throw in a uppercut or inverted punch to the opponents floating ribs after your foot stomp and counter grab? (before you hammer the nose)
    Or is that a wkka thing?
    No inverted punches. MoA is for a grab and straight pull. We borrow the force of the pull and as we pin his hands and stomp the lead foot we do a right thrusting hammerfist to his left eye. He can't roll with it like a knuckle rake. It hits harder and effects his ballance and structure, pushing him back and stretching his arms. I also now know that it sends false proprioceptive signals (thanks Doc) inducing a state of spatial distortion. And the straight strike is in harmony with the direction of the force of the pull.

    After the thrusting hammerfist, the right arm drops down onto his arms in a more structured, well anchored configuration. He's turned cw and presents a better target for the elbow. The right does not go to chamber, which would be wasted motion and really just robs power from the strike.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by NickName99 View Post
    We had a student tonight ask about MOA
    I showed him the tech and told him the hows and whys and a little history

    Mace Of Aggression
    Attack: The opponent is standing in front of you executing a two-hand grab and pull to your lapels.
    Defense:
    1. From a natural stance, have your left hand check the opponent's two hands. Step forward with your right foot into a right neutral bow (11:00) as you deliver a right glancing hammerfist strike across the bridge of his nose.
    2. Continue the arcing motion of your right arm and execute an inward diagonal-downward forearm rake across the opponent's forearms. Continue the arc of your right arm through a transitional chamber along your right upper ribcage and complete the arc by executing a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the left side of the opponent's head.
    3. Chamber your right arm and hand towards your 7:30 angle and shuffle forward as you deliver a right outward horizontal elbow strike to the right side of the opponent's head.
    I was an a wkka guy before starting in this new club which is akla

    now my question and my students was is there an inverted punch in the technique? According to all the text I've read no, but everytime I see it, There is one.
    How many people out there besides myself throw in a uppercut or inverted punch to the opponents floating ribs after your foot stomp and counter grab? (before you hammer the nose)
    Or is that a wkka thing?
    You can throw the uppercut before the hammerfist if you choose. That is a "prefix". Just make sure your left hand is ready to block the potential head-butt.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    You can throw the uppercut before the hammerfist if you choose. That is a "prefix". Just make sure your left hand is ready to block the potential head-butt.
    If we do throw the upper cut first, then why wouldn't we just go into Raking Mace?
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    If we do throw the upper cut first, then why wouldn't we just go into Raking Mace?

    He is not discussing defending against an uppercut.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by NickName99 View Post
    We had a student tonight ask about MOA
    I showed him the tech and told him the hows and whys and a little history

    Mace Of Aggression
    Attack: The opponent is standing in front of you executing a two-hand grab and pull to your lapels.
    Defense:
    1. From a natural stance, have your left hand check the opponent's two hands. Step forward with your right foot into a right neutral bow (11:00) as you deliver a right glancing hammerfist strike across the bridge of his nose.
    2. Continue the arcing motion of your right arm and execute an inward diagonal-downward forearm rake across the opponent's forearms. Continue the arc of your right arm through a transitional chamber along your right upper ribcage and complete the arc by executing a right inward horizontal elbow strike to the left side of the opponent's head.
    3. Chamber your right arm and hand towards your 7:30 angle and shuffle forward as you deliver a right outward horizontal elbow strike to the right side of the opponent's head.
    I was an a wkka guy before starting in this new club which is akla

    now my question and my students was is there an inverted punch in the technique? According to all the text I've read no, but everytime I see it, There is one.
    How many people out there besides myself throw in a uppercut or inverted punch to the opponents floating ribs after your foot stomp and counter grab? (before you hammer the nose)
    Or is that a wkka thing?
    I use an uppercut to the attacker's midsection as he pulls in, using his strength against him (Borrowed force) I know a lot of people who do the technique this way.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    He is not discussing defending against an uppercut.
    I know this but Mikael151 said that we could prefix with an upper cut and than go into the hammer fist, etc. I am just saying that we could do that but why not just go into Raking Mace than.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    I know this but Mikael151 said that we could prefix with an upper cut and than go into the hammer fist, etc. I am just saying that we could do that but why not just go into Raking Mace than.

    Explain to me how that would work.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Explain to me how that would work.
    1. Are the two techniques not for a two hand lappel grab, pull in?
    2. The first move of Raking Mace is the upper cut (or I have seen some do a middle knuckle to the solar plex) to the stomach. This is followed by the raking hammer fist and than the chop....so on and so forfth.

    You could still do Mace of Agression with the upper cut. I am just saying, why deviate from Raking Mace if that is how it starts. I know someone will try and get technical and say, "well it depends on if his chin comes down to his chest while his head comes down, than the throat will not be open." Well than by all means, do Mace of Aggression. It was just a thought. I guess it is just a preference kind of thing.
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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    If your attacker is pulling you in, he has committed himself to the action, and unless your hands areatleast chest high you are never going to get to hit him before he has finished moving you. I don't know how mobile some people are in the upper body, but I do know it is very difficult to strike someone in teh face if you are chest to chest with them and their hands are on your lapel. One of the prime reasons for a lapel grab and pull is to give a head butt, which can be very disorienting, the upper cut can stop his pulling action, which allows you to get your hammerfist up there.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    We work this such that when the grab is made, the attacker's arms are already bent, and he is already very close. We work it against him pulling in violently such as for a headbutt. A shot to the ribs in this just won't do the trick.


    Another thing in this instance, those anchored elbows provide him strength and lift. We deal with this by first fortifying our stance through a particular alignment mechanism by 1) bending the left knee to the natural articulating angle of the neutral bow, 2) rotating the body and right foot to bring the right shoulder into the 45 degree angle position of the neutral bow and planting that right heel on the 10:30 / 4:30 line (where its in the neutral bow position already), and 3) using the force of that rotation to collapse his left forearm into his center, creating a barrier from him continuing to pull us in. It is from this inititial positioning we thrust forward from the left foot (personally like to throw a quick knee into the pelvis, having sprung off of that activated right foot). When the foot comes down, I simultaneously hammer the right clavicle.

    Elbows are the same, though after the second elbow I follow it with a fitted hammer fist to the neck to drive him back and elongate his right arm, which I then break with an inside-outside overarm break.

    Close range, aggressive and committed headbutt. Tough thing to defend against.

    Hope that made some sense.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    If your attacker is pulling you in, he has committed himself to the action, and unless your hands areatleast chest high you are never going to get to hit him before he has finished moving you. I don't know how mobile some people are in the upper body, but I do know it is very difficult to strike someone in teh face if you are chest to chest with them and their hands are on your lapel. One of the prime reasons for a lapel grab and pull is to give a head butt, which can be very disorienting, the upper cut can stop his pulling action, which allows you to get your hammerfist up there.
    Ok. I agree. Riddle me this. When you have an individual grab you in any way, do you allow than to finish the grab? I.e. Crashing Wings. A bear hug, he is trying to pick you up, do you allow him to get a hold of you or do you stop him once you feel his hands coming together. Same thing here, how many techniques do we have for this attack (two hand lapel grab pull in)? Distructive Twins, Mace of Aggression, and Raking Mace to name a few. So, do you allow him to get close enough to get the headbutt before you react? I now that once I feel his hands on me than that fight or flight kicks in. Once I feel it than that is the tigger, regrab and either upper cut him, or hammer fist him. Or do the two punch for Distructive twins. When you practice all of these grab techniques you need to work on them like this. Once you feel it...booooom. So Either way...which will reach first, the headbutt or the fist?
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Or we take this a different way,

    1. If his elbows come down into the elbow pockets when they pull you in than you can not do Raking Mace unless you want your hand messed up, so than of course you could do Mace of Aggression.
    2. If his elbows become flared out than you can do Raking Mace.

    What is the big difference between the two other than the elbows? Nothing, Raking Mace is Mace of Agression starting on the bottom of the circle.

    3. How tall is the person compared to yourself? Can you reach their head with Mace of Aggression?

    But now I am just getting in to what ifs, so I am going to back down.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    uhh.. why not just go into raking mace if you use the punch.. because they're for point of origin.. one is if your hands are up, the other down.... similar techniques, that teach a more sophisticated way of defending against a grab, as well as point of origin referances.

    durring MoA, you borrow that force of him pulling you into your hammer fist to the nose.. thats how iv seen it done anyways.. if thats the case, how can you do the lower strike while using his borrowd force.. then again to the nose.. hed have to pull you twice.. doesnt make sense to me if you're working borrowed force into your initial strike.

    in that sense its one or the other.. depending on where your hands are before your initial strike. and i have to agree with bujuts.. if hes pulling you in for a headbut and you hit the solar plex, or ribs or wherever.. you wont have time for the next strike before your face is history. nothing to check his head... i like that actually.. working MoA against a headbutt if you're to late with the strike you could even do an inward forearm to the back/side of his head.

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    i like that actually.. working MoA against a headbutt if you're to late with the strike you could even do an inward forearm to the back/side of his head.
    To add, we must also consider them jamming you with a knee as they pull you in. You'll never see it coming. Aggressive headbutt and knee simultaneously - this could damn near take you out if done forcefully enough. The reason I throw the knee in there is to penetrate the pelvis from an angle to check that and negate any knee they're throwing.

    Your thoughts, amigos?

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Rob,

    You know exactly what I'm talking about, do you think its a Stewart thing?

    For everyone else, Rob was around in our neighbourhood back in the late 90's early 2000's, he took the school over from G. Anstice (Stewart's District Rep)
    A bum deal but seem like a good idea at the time.
    Anyone who trained WKKA at that time was learning a Varient for sword and hammer and MoA

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    Talking Re: Mace of Aggression help

    i think that you guys are missing the point,in yellow belt we are taught one handed kenpo you got to think like that to understand why it is taught like that ie without the uppercut first. when you pin you lock off your opponent the hammerfist is driven not raking so you extend his arms straight putting him in position for the downward/inward elbow. short arc on the right inward elbow and lots of travel on the outward elbow i like to figure eight the last arc before the outward elbow. i would say the most important thing is establish your base remove his,face your work and be effective with your strikes. that's just how i train it hope it helped.
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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    I like that, Im going to talk to the head instructor and probably teach both but like you said Jason, keep it simple and one handed. When our student is ready to grade, ask for the more (I hate using this word when it comes to kenpo) standardized (AHHHHHH) kenpo.

    There is lots of time to teach the equation. Its been a long time for me to unlearn the some of my Mcdojo teachers lessons, some are embedded deep.
    My first instructor was a TKD guy by heart and his kenpo was sloppy (not knowing the difference) my kenpo was very bouncing and sloppy too.

    For you moderators out there, Im not bashing any of the names I've mention.
    The Mcdojos taught me important lessons. Mainly how to identify poor kenpo, and for that I'm grateful. Even poor lessons have rich knowledge in them.

    I just wish I didnt buy his videos. LOL

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    Default Re: Mace of Aggression help

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    You can throw the uppercut before the hammerfist if you choose. That is a "prefix". Just make sure your left hand is ready to block the potential head-butt.
    No you can't. Well you can but it will trigger a head butt. You have nothing to control the depth.
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