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Thread: Kicking within Kenpo

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    >Yes sir, along with Sea Oh Choi, Chuck Norris and a plethora of Korean stylists. >Gene and Geaorge Takahashi from Shotokan, Brian Hawkins, Bob Liles, and others >from Kenpo, etc. It is important that we have the proper understanding of kicking >that goes beyond point fighting, to pass on to our students.

    LOL!

    I love it Doc (seems like I’m talking to myself, since most people call me Doc also)!

    Nice post.

    I agree and I disagree.

    Here’s why.

    BEFORE the age of 19 you can do almost anything with your kicks. You have that natural flexibility.

    Up to about 30-35, you still can do almost anything, but now it takes about 40% longer to heal. The cartilage is getting less flexible. The ligaments still work pretty well.

    AFTER the age of 40, you better be doing the kicking Master Keys correct or your body will let you know by ripping and tearing apart.

    I used to think those “old” guys (people over 35) were cowards and were just doing a “loser’s limp” when they groaned an complained and got injured attempting to do something a 20 year old could do easily.

    They were still men in their eyes and they wanted to do it come Hell or high water.

    Now I am one. Torn out my knees. Broke my back. Torn out my hip. Massive neck injury. Surgeries, etc. Besides really pissing me it, I’ve had to relearn how to do all those skills in a way that is still effective, but takes into account something BESIDES being young, skinny and double jointed.

    So, because I’ve finally figured out was really does work for people over 35, I normally take the old guys (age 50 and above) onto my schedule JUST BECAUSE those young whipper-snappers just don’t have a clue to the physical differences of youth versus age.

    A bad experience will really get your attention and lead you to do it right and better the next time.

    Then it becomes a learning experience.

    Unfortunately most older people quit when they have a bad experience, NOT knowing that it’s just a LEARNING EXPERIENCE, showing them what NOT to do.

    We care MORE about the Master Keys of kicking.

    Thank you Doc for a wonderful post.
    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. One of my older clients who’s been a client of mine for 17 years, (age 59) with a Ph.D. in English Lit, told me I should write a kicking book for old guys. I told him “it won’t sell and would be a waste of time”. He agreed.
    OK so now I'm talking to myself.

    Yes I agree. The human body is comprised of approximately 206 bones, but actually more when you're younger, helping to achieve that moldable flexibility. Much like in the old Peking, (now Beijing) Opera where martial arts performers where stretched as children to enable them to do fantqstic acrobatic movements. Once you reach a certain age, that is no longer possible. I can't help but notice there are no "older" gymnast in America either.

    As the body ages, muscle and tendon flexibility is affected by bone structures beginning to fuse together, and why as we age we have less bones than when we're younger. Regardless of regime, and the age started, as we age it become increasingly more difficult to maintain this flexibility for these and other reasons.

    Ed Parker told this to me as a younger man, and swore that improper kicking could become debilitating if done incorrectly, or in excess for a sustained period. He himself abstained from certain kicks and quietly promoted them to me and others as "unnecessary." Once he created the Internationals and competition became big business, he softened his public tone because of the popularity of such kicking in the schools and movies. He took note of the success of the TKD schools and its hordes of children and their, "jump spin heel hook, lip smacking, round off flip flop, double wammy Wu-Shu" style of kicking.

    Nevertheless I was quite a kicker in my day, but I also knew when to give it up for more anatomically friendly pursuits. Thansk "Doc" for reminding me. Over sixty and still kicking. Or as my Grandmother used to say when I asked her how she was feeling, "Kicking, but not high!"
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Originally posted by katsudo_karate

    Stance modification I totally agree ... however I am speaking more of the Bill "Superfoot" Wallace type chamber.

    Now of course this won't work with EVERY kick but the basic ones you need for the street.

    Raise your knee in a traditional front kick chamber ... now from here you can throw a side kick, round kick or front kick with no telegraph.

    I had heard of Superfoot Wallace’s tactic of using the same chambering for the side kick, wheel kick, and front kick, and I’m glad you brought it up.

    It is a way of hiding which kick you are going to do, so that even once your opponent sees that you are going to kick, they don’t know where to block until it is too late.

    Even if this is employed, I believe it is only meant as an occasional strategy for some kicks, as I discuss more at the bottom of my post. At the moment though I will start with the merits/drawbacks I have found in using it.



    I thought this strategy was a very good idea, and tried to emulate it. I have never actually seen any of Mr. Wallace’s fights so I don’t know how he used it, but even at 20 years old I could only effectively do those 3 kicks from the same chamber off the rear leg. 2 of the kicks would also be slower than they would otherwise have been for lack of economy of motion, but that’s just fine if I’m using my chambering to make him react and then choosing an unexpected target.


    As hard as I tried though, I couldn’t find an effective way to do those three kicks from the same fold with a front leg kick, which is the majority of what I did. (a personal talent/predisposition) I had to do too much to ‘compensate,’ and I believe Dr. LaTourrette has illuminated the reasons behind that.


    The same chamber idea is valuable from the point of view that kicks are slow enough that an opponent might be able to figure out just what you are doing and have time to react and counter it. With the same fold, the time from the unique movement to impact is greatly reduced, even if the time of the kick as a whole is slightly longer.

    However, I would as soon use economy of motion for speed and ease, and have my intention hidden from the start of the kick by choosing the kick that fits the situation, taking into account the principle of 0-perception so they do not even see my foot leave the ground until it hits them.


    Having said that, I do make use of the same chamber where I have found that it does not interfere with the principles mentioned above.

    For instance, I do the front snap kick from the same chamber as a front thrust kick, from the same fold I often use for an ax kick. The thigh travels the same direction relative to the hip in all 3 of those kicks.



    As for the idea of doing all of your kicks from the same chambering,
    I believe that doing ALL of your kicks from the same chambering is a bad idea REGARDLESS of your age, flexibility, and the stresses it may put on your joints.

    If you do all of your kicks come from the same chambering, you can only do your kicks from 1 stance, 1 position. If you aren’t in position for that chamber, your opponent knows that you aren’t going to kick him.
    Conversely, it is easy for him to know when you are kicking and he can be prepared to jam it at that chambering.


    People have talked of the merits about kicking from neutral bows, or from forward non-assuming stances, with very important points about the merits of kicking from one stance over another.

    But no single stance is perfect. If it were, there would only be 1 stance.
    Rather than keeping to one posture, I can be more effective by flowing into different stances depending on the immediate situation, and can do many kicks from any of those stances by using different folds and chamberings. My opponent never knows when I will throw my kick, because I can throw it from any stance I take, precisely because of different chamberings.


    That is my experience. I am always learning, and look forward to hearing your thoughts.

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    John M. La Tourrette (03-29-2007)

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post
    Raise your knee in a traditional front kick chamber ... now from here you can throw a side kick, round kick or front kick with no telegraph.
    Front, sie, yes. Round, no.
    Thanks for your post and feedback. Here are 2 photos of me from my Moo Duk Kwan days. I am built more like SGM Parker these days than shown here.



    [/QUOTE]

    Show off.....
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Thanks La Tourrette, for the great specifics! The hidden closing gaps, and various angles mentioned allow for a wide selection of powerful weapons, to use on any stance an opponent may have. Surely the secrecy of the body shifts add up to a devastating attack.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post
    Hi Dr. La Tourrette,

    Thanks for your detailed and excellent post. I also came from a kicking style before and during my Kenpo training. I actually hold a 4th dan black belt from the kukkiwon in Seoul Korea.

    Stance modification I totally agree ... however I am speaking more of the Bill "Superfoot" Wallace type chamber.

    Now of course this won't work with EVERY kick but the basic ones you need for the street.

    Raise your knee in a traditional front kick chamber ... now from here you can throw a side kick, round kick or front kick with no telegraph.

    A true neutral bow 50/50 weight is difficult to kick from and you must make an adjustment ... now a side horse can disguise your kick *IF* you bring the rear leg up without adjusting your height zone and keeping your front let in place ... Bill Wallace did this to me ... very fast.

    Thanks for your post and feedback. Here are 2 photos of me from my Moo Duk Kwan days. I am built more like SGM Parker these days than shown here.



    Why are you kicking so high? Are you only four feet tall?

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    DavidCC (04-12-2007)

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    Post Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Kenpo View Post
    Is the kicking within Kenpo based more on Japanese, Chinese, or maybe even Korean art forms? Better yet, would you say it's just "Amercaniized as a whole?

    Thank You!
    For the most part we keep our kicks low and fast. Usually to knees, or to the bladder/stomach area. But, on occasion, if the circumstance is right we kick higher to the neck/chin/head area. We are taught the kick is merely one movement of a series of movements usually. We do not look to end the fight with one kick but rather to disable/stun before striking with a more devastating blow.

    We do have all the kicks of all the other forms (except maybe Muy Thai's kicks such as the huricane kick). But in the beginning it is simply the front snap kick, step-through side kick, roundhouse, double front snap kick, step-through back kick, aerial roundhouse, and step-through hook kick.

    Later we learn defensive side kick, defensive hook kick, defensive back kick, inward axe kick, outward axe kick, spinning back kick, spinning side kick.

    Still later we learn other forms of all of these including aerial versions. However these are learned mostly for academic reasons rather than partical uses seeing as most of us acknowledge that leaving the ground is not practical in most cases and that kicks that are done while firmly planted generate greater force.

    If for no other reason than to know your enemy I believe they all should be learned and an attempt made to perfect them (which we all know as martial artists there is no such thing as perfecting a move only the strive for improvement).
    Devil Dog Mark
    Hawaiian Kempo & Okinawan Kubudo

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Mr.L.

    I would like to take a look at these Master Keys for kicking you have mentioned. How may I? I have two weak knees, and my flexibility is gone too. I am 44, and concerned that how I was taught to kick has caused me injury. Therfore need to make changes. Thanks for any help you can give.

    1stJohn1:9

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpochrstn View Post
    Mr.L.

    I would like to take a look at these Master Keys for kicking you have mentioned. How may I? I have two weak knees, and my flexibility is gone too. I am 44, and concerned that how I was taught to kick has caused me injury. Therfore need to make changes. Thanks for any help you can give.

    1stJohn1:9
    stay within your easy motion barriers
    Sean

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    Why are you kicking so high? Are you only four feet tall?
    Dang! you figured out my secret
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Front, sie, yes. Round, no.
    Thanks for your post and feedback. Here are 2 photos of me from my Moo Duk Kwan days. I am built more like SGM Parker these days than shown here.



    Show off.....[/quote]

    Thanks DOC ... can't do this anymore but I can dream, LOL!
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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    >Why are you kicking so high? Are you only four feet tall?

    Have you heard of the concept of “tow” training?

    It’s very important for learning how to go beyond your current abilities.

    For example the Ed Parker concept of the “full course meal” attack plan is very adequate to win with.

    But we do have Waza that have MORE than 3 hits. Some has as many as 22 hits.

    So, what’s the purpose of that type of “tow” training?

    Sincerely,
    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ph.D. Sports Psychology
    Ps. I love how the Kenpo Karate Mental Training Principles are incorporated into all the Waza and the Kata. Even the “tow” training Master Keys.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    >Yes sir, along with Sea Oh Choi, Chuck Norris and a plethora of Korean stylists. >Gene and Geaorge Takahashi from Shotokan, Brian Hawkins, Bob Liles, and others >from Kenpo, etc. It is important that we have the proper understanding of kicking >that goes beyond point fighting, to pass on to our students.

    I’ve been thinking about this thread for the last day or so.

    And I’ve been mismatching it, and noting the many examples that are in contradiction.

    And I’ve been thinking about those that are “mature” and are still doing a great job kicking kumdingee even in their 50’s, 60’s, and beyond.

    And a few minutes ago I was teaching/reviewing one of my black belts with a kicking Waza called “Three Strikes of the Serpent”.

    Variation #1 is where the uke throws a right head punch and steps forward normally with his left foot.

    So you step to 9 o’clock and execute a right outward vertical block and trap as you:

    1. Right front dorsum kick him to the testicles
    2. Right side kick him to the inner left knee, 2” above the joint
    3. Then pivot CCS and rear kick him to the chest.

    All the kicks are done with the right leg! All the kicks are done without placing the kicking leg to the ground.

    The control is in the knee flex, the breathing and in the kick rebounding.

    Variation #2 is where the uke throws a right head punch and steps forward “homolaterally” with his right foot. (This is NOT normal, and virtually never happens on the street).

    1. Again, you step to 9 o’clock with your left foot execute a right outward vertical block and trap as you”:
    2. Right front “snap wheel” dorsum kick to the testicles
    3. Right side kick to his forward right outside knee, 2” above the joint on the tendon.
    4. Then pivot CCW, placing the right foot to the ground and executing a left spinning back side kick under his arm, or to his kidney (target selection is caused by how much he turned because of the kick to the outside knee).

    Here the first two kicks are controlled by the breathing, the rebounding…

    …and the third kick is done with foot shifting rebounding.

    So proper Master Keys of kicking, when they are adhered to, seem to stop the knee damages.

    Note there was NO kicking of the air. Always targets with “control”.

    Another thing is, I believe FROM MY EXPERIENCES with all my clients over the past 9 years is that there are certain drills that can be done, and certain nutrients that can be taken, that will HELP REJUVENATE the knees, the cartilage and the ligaments so that surgery in most cases is NOT necessary.

    In my own case, I was told I needed a knee replacement 14 years ago.

    I think they just wanted me to pay for their next boat.

    So I found better ways.

    I’ve mentioned some of these “better ways” that work real good for me and my clients.

    I can put forth the entire requiem if anyone is interested.

    Or, you can tell me your problem (s) with kicking and I can give you some very valuable hints.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post
    Show off.....
    Thanks DOC ... can't do this anymore but I can dream, LOL![/QUOTE]

    Well I don't know if it will make you feel any better but, I never could do it.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Well I don't know if it will make you feel any better but, I never could do it.
    I tell you what, I will trade you my high kicks for your hand speed, LOL.

    Have a great Kenpo day.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I can put forth the entire requiem if anyone is interested.
    Love to see it, thanks!
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Okay,
    I'll get around to it this weekend.
    If I forget, remind me.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. got to go to a movie and dinner to keep the sweet wife sweet.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Okay,
    I'll get around to it this weekend.
    If I forget, remind me.
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. got to go to a movie and dinner to keep the sweet wife sweet.
    Enjoy it!
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    [quote=John M. La Tourrette;49404Here’s a question for the group.

    How many here have earned a black belt (adult ranking) in Taekwon-do and have added those types of kicks to your Kenpo Karate?

    How many here have altered those Taekwon-do kicks by ADDING TO THEM the Master Keys of Kenpo Karate, so now you have kicks much more effective?

    How many have adopted Master Keys from world class experts on kicking like Bill Wallace or Super Dan Anderson, and added those Master Keys to your kicking?

    [/quote]
    TKD kicks were killer for me My hips just couldn't take it. One of the things I liked about Kenpo is my instructor insists that kicks be no higher than waist level.
    THe only kick I would carry over is the double roundhouse. I'm pretty good at balancing and use the chambered leg to block then shoot out 2 to 4 kicks.
    It's always cool to watch what I call 'movie' kicks...fancy, high, spinning, jumping, but practically it seems just moving in on someone doing those will render them ineffective.

    I was watching a video of one of SGM Ed Parker's classes and he talked about kicks with elongating the circle. He was saying you start off doing a front kick and just before you hit the target you 'catch' the circle and adjust to a roundhouse or side kick. Is this what was meant about chambering the same?

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Anoise View Post
    TKD kicks were killer for me My hips just couldn't take it.
    Hips hurt when the single point balance is NOT turned correctly for the kick.

    Easy to fix unless you have a structural deficiency.

    If you do, then go to a lead leg round house.

    Sincerely,
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    THank you. I think it's medical, the doctor is still trying to figure it out. HMOs are not the best

    Another thing is, I believe FROM MY EXPERIENCES with all my clients over the past 9 years is that there are certain drills that can be done, and certain nutrients that can be taken, that will HELP REJUVENATE the knees, the cartilage and the ligaments so that surgery in most cases is NOT necessary.

    In my own case, I was told I needed a knee replacement 14 years ago.

    I think they just wanted me to pay for their next boat.

    So I found better ways.

    I’ve mentioned some of these “better ways” that work real good for me and my clients.

    I can put forth the entire requiem if anyone is interested.
    I am interested in reading more about this.

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