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Thread: Kicking within Kenpo

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by tiktok86 View Post
    As JD said, we do a bunch of kicking...some to the lower targets but also a lot to head level. The goal is always to be able to execute a kick to the head...whether or not the flexibility and strength is there is another matter.
    Interesting philosophy that belies self defense perameters in reality.
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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post
    All kick should come from the same chamber until you execute the kick.
    I have to disagree with ya here Martin. Each kick has a different chambering mechanism if you want optimum power and stability. I see far too many roundhouse kicks being thrown from a ball kick setup and you lose everything by doing so for the sake of a split second of speed difference.
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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Interesting philosophy that belies self defense perameters in reality.
    I actually agree with him on this one Doc. The piece of the puzzle that makes his statement legit is WHERE his head is when you kick it. I will not kick someone in the head without dropping them at least to their knees first.
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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by IWishToLearn View Post
    I actually agree with him on this one Doc. The piece of the puzzle that makes his statement legit is WHERE his head is when you kick it. I will not kick someone in the head without dropping them at least to their knees first.
    You're cheating. That's Ed Parker's philosophy.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by IWishToLearn View Post
    I have to disagree with ya here Martin. Each kick has a different chambering mechanism if you want optimum power and stability. I see far too many roundhouse kicks being thrown from a ball kick setup and you lose everything by doing so for the sake of a split second of speed difference.
    That particular perspective comes from sport applications where you're trying to "fool" or confuse an opponant, who anticpates your actions under sparring conditions. Real fights do not take on that quality.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    TKD blackbelts that teach kenpo, now, are probably teaching korean kicking but The school where I train maintains the original Chinese philosophy on the whole matter.
    Sean
    Hi Sean,

    Can you please explain the Chinese philosophy on kicking?

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Billy Lear View Post
    Hi Sean,

    Can you please explain the Chinese philosophy on kicking?
    Ok, there is the Korean way and the chinese way (or should I say main land Asiatic arts). The mainland Asiatic systems generaly use kicks as an insert or aid in their general fighting system. This stems from the belief that posture and stabilty are everything. The Korean systems (although not all) Focus on kicking. This is were you get statements like 99% of your kicks should be chambered. Rather than a step axageration and all its variances. Kicks become a major move and is the culmination of your efforts rather than a minor tool. To choose this method, you must put Posture and Balance on the back burner, in the hopes that the sacrafice will produce devasting results. This can and does happen, until you face and opponent that knows what they are doing and has a firm foundation on the principles of motion.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    There are anatomical mandates that supersede personal preferences when it comes to efficient and non-injurious kicking. Your statement does not fit this anatomical physical mandate of human anatomy sir.
    OK ,well my take on that if I"m being attacked in a real altercation with a larger opponent, if I am going to use a kick to take out his knees or to stop his progression or even to push me back to set up for my counter to his attack or even just to get out of there safe. I am not going to think about my foot positioning before I take the shot but I will make sure my support leg is in the correct place to create a bracing for my kick and if I rebound at least I create the space to set my next move. Basically for me I like taking kicking combination that we learn in our techniques and try to work then in different angles, different heights and even in reverse. If they work to the legs, how can I use that same concept to the body and arms with the kicks. Efficiency is very important to me and correct anatomical alignment is the only way be is to be Efficient to create maximum amount of power with out hurting yourself or losing your balance and falling over. If not Kenpo is known for our great hand technique. Doc I do respect your opinion, this is just how I understand it.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    That particular perspective comes from sport applications where you're trying to "fool" or confuse an opponant, who anticpates your actions under sparring conditions. Real fights do not take on that quality.
    Uh wait I think I have a quote for this one... ah yes here it is.


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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You're cheating. That's Ed Parker's philosophy.

    I borrowed it. So sue me. :P
    ~ Steve Zalazowski
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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by akskarate1 View Post
    OK ,well my take on that if I"m being attacked in a real altercation with a larger opponent, if I am going to use a kick to take out his knees or to stop his progression or even to push me back to set up for my counter to his attack or even just to get out of there safe. I am not going to think about my foot positioning before I take the shot but I will make sure my support leg is in the correct place to create a bracing for my kick and if I rebound at least I create the space to set my next move.
    Like everything else, it must be learned behavior that precludes "thinking" in a spontateous environement.
    Efficiency is very important to me and correct anatomical alignment is the only way be is to be Efficient to create maximum amount of power with out hurting yourself ....
    I believe we're on the same page sir. The importance of "correct" kicking is as fundamental as exaggerating movements of the arms and utilizing them as offensive weapons. But, like the arms, there are efficient anatomical mandates that preclude some of the popular applications found in sport "point" martial arts. The damage done by ignoring these mandates is significant enough to have long ranging debilitating effects. Witness the plethora of well known martial artists with multiple shoulder and hip replacement surgeries.

    Although there would be a natural tendancy to expect this in many of the Korean arts, the mass appeal of point competition, and lack of knowledge of proper basics has bred a generation of injuries in all of the arts, and especially Kenpo. Ed Parker predicited this in the sixties, and kept his own kicking applications within the Chinese perspective of his influences.

    "It makes as much sense to kick a guy in the head standing up, as it does to drop and punch him in the foot." - Ed Parker Sr.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Unless you're talking about a front kick, that would be anatomically incorrect.
    I agree. Thrust kicks, whether to the front, or the side, heel hook, etc. will not point the knee at the target, because it is not anatomically correct. Front kicks, yes, roundhouse and wheel kicks yes. Rear kick it should be the heel that points at the target. Knife edge kick, whether it be to the front, or the side, will point the knee at the target.

    I need to go through the kicks in our system and see what the percentage is of kicks the knee actually does point at the target, prior to the leg extending.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    >All kick should come from the same chamber until you execute the kick.

    Hi Martin,

    May I humbly and respectfully disagree? I will give you the reasons why, and some of the specific how-to’s. And I’d love to hear what you have to say about what I am going to say;-)

    I know exactly where you are coming from and I heard the same thing from Mr. Parker.

    And Mr. Parker and I did have talks about this “same chamber” concept.

    He’d show me. I’d show him. We argued. We both took notes. He had some great kicking concepts, and then some that did NOT work for me.

    We had totally different body structures, flexibility and leg length.

    We had totally different concepts about battle tactics. I wanted to more. To not be seen. To hit them from outside their range. To have at least 5 different fighting ranges. And kicking was for the 2 ranges that Mr. Parker did not do much with.

    And we had TOTALLY DIFFERENT kick training. I’d been in martial arts over 20 years before meeting Mr. Parker and I did have some very high skills from other systems, like Richard Castillo’s also had much Kick training BEFORE Kenpo.

    Mr. Parker did not kick very well on anything except a front snap kick. Short legs, massive body, not much lateral flexibility AND he didn’t care much about kicks.

    What is interesting is that Professor Chow DID HAVE fantastic kicking skills, even on the flying kicking skill arts.

    Me, I was the “kicker from Hell” AND I love Kenpo Karate also! (See my flying side kick. It was clipped from a photo that I took in the foothills, doing a flying side kick against giant 6’ 8” tall, Tiny Bill Galloway. Note full combat gear, and combat boots, and the kick was up to his head.)

    I was a kicker when I was doing Okazaki jujitsu back in 1957-66, even though they didn’t kick. Then the 4 years in the military, many of those years in Korea, kicking, kicking, kicking, and doing it very effectively I might add.

    I was short upper body, long legs, very flexible, very strong, and at that time I weighted in between 160-175 pounds, which is a marathon built, since I am 6’ 2” inches tall.

    Our discussions lead to Mr. Parker telling me to write it all up as a thesis for my next belt ranking. So I wrote the “Master’s Kicking Guide” for my 5th Dan thesis (1980-1981).

    From those very neat conversations came one book, many manuals, 4 DVDs on kicking secrets, some DVD's on flexibility. I THANK Mr. Parker for getting my creative mind working of "what else" could those concepts be, do, and how else could I do them?"

    And I really did attempt to do all kicks from that same chamber like Mr. Parker advocated.

    It does NOT work! It’s like attempting to fire all calibers of bullets from a colt 45 auto. It just doesn’t work.

    Those who attempt to make “kicking from the same chamber” will always remain inferior kickers. That does NOT mean they can’t fight. It just means they are using kicking skills parameters much too narrow and rigid to allow them to take advantage of the real possibilities of their kicking advantage.

    There are many kicking Master Keys that the “Parker Chamber Concept” excludes.

    Here’s a couple of them.

    Some kicks work better from facing the opponent. Front dorsum kick, front ball kick, front heel thrust kick, front scoop kick, etc.

    Other kicks work better from a 45 degree angle, for inner contouring attacks (open stance). Snap wheel ball kick, snap wheel dorsum kick, ball kick to throat, dorsum kick to head, etc.

    Other kicks work better from a 45 degree angle, for outer contouring attacks (open stance), side snap kick to thigh reflex point, to mid-thigh lymphatic to outside hip, etc.

    Other kicks work better from a 120-170 degree angle.

    And some kicks work from up-to-a 270 degree angle!

    If you even attempt to do a step through front kick off of the neutral bow, anyone can see it incoming (see why that is so, further down the page).

    If you even attempt to do a wheel kick off of the neutral bow, anyone one with an eye can see the body move first, then the thigh coming up.

    We won’t even talk about the “lack of effectiveness” of a side kick off of the neutral bow.

    The LA TOURRETTE variation:

    Now, if you have a forward facing neutral (a modification I started teaching back in the 70’s) THEN it is much harder to “see” an incoming step-through front snap kick.

    Here are some of the differences and reasons why I changed it.

    Parker’s Neutral bow had a 45degree turn and was the width of the back knee to the front HEEL. That is MUCH TOO wide for any type of accelerator movement using the fastest of the closing gaps.

    The neutral bow stance is a give-away when it is used for any kick.

    Here’s why it is a dead give away. Again, the hips turning will telegraph the kick. The feet are too wide and the shift to one point balance is easily seen. Much that is wrong about is from the viewpoint of the Uke being easily able to see it.

    I adapted NB to a forward non-assuming stance (which uses all of the Master Keys of the NB, and a few more that are important to me) where your hips are forward and your shoulders are forward. You are protecting your groin (and other targets) with the “critical distance” between you. The width of the stance is the right knee, when dropping down goes to the front TOES!

    From the frontal non-assuming stance, the hips do NOT give away the kick. The shoulders do NOT give away the kick. The knee coming up does NOT give away the kick. The single point balance place does NOT give away the kick.

    From the frontal non-assuming stance the distance is deceptively covered. The distance is covered faster. The chamber for which ever kick decided upon is visually hidden (when compared to a Kenpo chamber or a Taekwon-do chamber). It follows the Kenpo Karate concept of “aim small, miss small”. It allows you to do frontal kick assaults, inner-hurricane kicking assaults, crescent or reverse crescent kicking assaults, open stance kick assaults, closed stance kick assaults, and much, much more.


    Now, BEFORE we kick any kick we need to know what type of stance “Uke” has. Is his stance sides ways and OPEN, or side ways and CLOSED, or frontal?

    Any kicking tactics used must be used to contour those conditions in him and in YOUR own natural non-assuming accelerator stance.

    And BEFORE doing any kick you need to know what distance and what angle and with contour he is easily attacked on.

    You can also easily and covertly shuffle your rear foot behind the front foot and kick them with the closer, front foot. Deception, deception, deception.

    Attempting to kick a front kick, a snap wheel kick, and wheel kick and a side kick from the same chamber has a couple of other negative side effects.

    1. You need to really know your single point balances for each of those kicks. 45 degree, 45-60 degrees, 100-120 degrees, 120-140-degrees, and 140-170 degrees (depending on the hip flexibility of the kicker).

    2. That means that you need a manner of foot shifting that is NOT touching the ground (if you have the pressure and friction of touching the ground that tends to cause you to tear the meniscus of the balancing knee)…

    3. You need to have a method of putting it down that keeps your bodies weight centered (a method of covert closing gaps)…

    4. You need to have the timing exactly precise when changing from the original chamber of the kicking knee coming up and then switching to a snap wheel, a wheel, a side thrust, or a flip wheel kick.

    5. When that is done incorrectly you accidentally stretch or tear the ligaments in the kicking knee.

    That’s a no-no.

    So using the Parker concept of “having the same chamber” can and will injure those that attempt to use it when fighting, and at high level fighting speeds.

    Which is the reason I developed 4 basic fighting technologies using kicks and hands, and hands and kicks in 72 different combinations, that we teach all our white belts as part of their first rank, and we keep on reviewing those flow kicking, flow attacking hand combinations EVERY Mastery Class and EVERY Sparring Class! It is THAT important!

    It really does work well. I’d take a team of competitors to a tournament, and we’d always walk away victorious. One time, 3 of my Kenpo Karate black belts flew to the Kenpo Championships on the Island of Jersey. They took 1st place, 2nd place, and 3rd place. They ended up fighting each other for the honors. Hirsh, Benedict and McFadden.

    All good Kenpo Karate men.

    Anyway, all of the above concepts are more easily shown than written about. As Mr. Parker stated, “When you MAKE THEM FEEL it, they believe it!”

    Enough for now.
    Let me know if you want more details.

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. Martin, Thank you for your post. You reminded me of some of my meetings with Mr. Parker that I’d forgotten about because of the passing of time.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Hi Dr. La Tourrette,

    Thanks for your detailed and excellent post. I also came from a kicking style before and during my Kenpo training. I actually hold a 4th dan black belt from the kukkiwon in Seoul Korea.

    Stance modification I totally agree ... however I am speaking more of the Bill "Superfoot" Wallace type chamber.

    Now of course this won't work with EVERY kick but the basic ones you need for the street.

    Raise your knee in a traditional front kick chamber ... now from here you can throw a side kick, round kick or front kick with no telegraph.

    A true neutral bow 50/50 weight is difficult to kick from and you must make an adjustment ... now a side horse can disguise your kick *IF* you bring the rear leg up without adjusting your height zone and keeping your front let in place ... Bill Wallace did this to me ... very fast.

    Thanks for your post and feedback. Here are 2 photos of me from my Moo Duk Kwan days. I am built more like SGM Parker these days than shown here.



    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    >Thanks for your detailed and excellent post.

    Martin,
    You are welcome.

    How do you put those neat pictures in?

    >I also came from a kicking style before and during my Kenpo training. I actually >hold a 4th dan black belt from the kukkiwon in Seoul Korea.

    Nice.
    Here’s a question for the group.

    How many here have earned a black belt (adult ranking) in Taekwon-do and have added those types of kicks to your Kenpo Karate?

    How many here have altered those Taekwon-do kicks by ADDING TO THEM the Master Keys of Kenpo Karate, so now you have kicks much more effective?

    How many have adopted Master Keys from world class experts on kicking like Bill Wallace or Super Dan Anderson, and added those Master Keys to your kicking?

    >Stance modification I totally agree ... however I am speaking more of the Bill >"Superfoot" Wallace type chamber.

    Cool.

    Yep we teach the Bill Wallace Chamber (and much more) to all of our Kenpo Karate students.

    The MOST important concepts besides the chamber are the single points and the hidden and virtually UNSEEN closing gaps.

    Have you noticed that even Bill Wallace (he’s now old also) cannot do the Bill Wallace Chamber?

    It’s amazing what the young can do easily and effortlessly. I love it!

    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. I do NOT like Wallace’s books (I own and have studied them all), but I love his kicking Master Keys. I LOVE Dan Anderson’s book, AND his Kicking Master Keys!

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Bill Wallace's "chamber" is anatomically incorrect and always has been, and will eventually lead to physical disability requiring corrective surgery. He is far from being alone in this.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

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    Thumbs up Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post
    All kick should come from the same chamber until you execute the kick.
    Yes
    "Holding on to anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else, YOU are the one who gets burned."
    Buddha.

    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]


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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Bill Wallace's "chamber" is anatomically incorrect and always has been, and will eventually lead to physical disability requiring corrective surgery. He is far from being alone in this.
    Didn't Bill already get his hip redone.

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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodoc View Post
    Didn't Bill already get his hip redone.
    Yes sir, along with Sea Oh Choi, Chuck Norris and a plethora of Korean stylists. Gene and Geaorge Takahashi from Shotokan, Brian Hawkins, Bob Liles, and others from Kenpo, etc. It is important that we have the proper understanding of kicking that goes beyond point fighting, to pass on to our students.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: Kicking within Kenpo

    >Yes sir, along with Sea Oh Choi, Chuck Norris and a plethora of Korean stylists. >Gene and Geaorge Takahashi from Shotokan, Brian Hawkins, Bob Liles, and others >from Kenpo, etc. It is important that we have the proper understanding of kicking >that goes beyond point fighting, to pass on to our students.

    LOL!

    I love it Doc (seems like I’m talking to myself, since most people call me Doc also)!

    Nice post.

    I agree and I disagree.

    Here’s why.

    BEFORE the age of 19 you can do almost anything with your kicks. You have that natural flexibility.

    Up to about 30-35, you still can do almost anything, but now it takes about 40% longer to heal. The cartilage is getting less flexible. The ligaments still work pretty well.

    AFTER the age of 40, you better be doing the kicking Master Keys correct or your body will let you know by ripping and tearing apart.

    I used to think those “old” guys (people over 35) were cowards and were just doing a “loser’s limp” when they groaned an complained and got injured attempting to do something a 20 year old could do easily.

    They were still men in their eyes and they wanted to do it come Hell or high water.

    Now I am one. Torn out my knees. Broke my back. Torn out my hip. Massive neck injury. Surgeries, etc. Besides really pissing me it, I’ve had to relearn how to do all those skills in a way that is still effective, but takes into account something BESIDES being young, skinny and double jointed.

    So, because I’ve finally figured out was really does work for people over 35, I normally take the old guys (age 50 and above) onto my schedule JUST BECAUSE those young whipper-snappers just don’t have a clue to the physical differences of youth versus age.

    A bad experience will really get your attention and lead you to do it right and better the next time.

    Then it becomes a learning experience.

    Unfortunately most older people quit when they have a bad experience, NOT knowing that it’s just a LEARNING EXPERIENCE, showing them what NOT to do.

    We care MORE about the Master Keys of kicking.

    Thank you Doc for a wonderful post.
    ©Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Ps. One of my older clients who’s been a client of mine for 17 years, (age 59) with a Ph.D. in English Lit, told me I should write a kicking book for old guys. I told him “it won’t sell and would be a waste of time”. He agreed.

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