View Poll Results: Do you train to defend shoots?

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  • Yes, it is a common attack these days...

    12 46.15%
  • No, nobody in their right mind would try that...

    1 3.85%
  • Sometimes, but we don't put much emphasis on it..

    11 42.31%
  • What the heck is a "shoot?"

    2 7.69%
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Thread: Defending the "Shoot"

  1. #1
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    Default Defending the "Shoot"

    Who out there honestly spends any real time training to defend the shoot? I'm talking at least once a week?

    Other than sprawling drills, what other methods do you use and/or teach?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Really we dont but probably should more frequently.
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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    We have only worked a drill to defend against this type of attack 1 time in the last 1-2 years that I remember. (Sprawling). As popular as this type of technique has become we really should work defenses against it more often.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    It's in the new 5.0 material, so we'll be working it a lot.

    We did last night as a matter of fact. It's all new to me, so it's kinda weird.

    Not natural yet.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    The AKKI has some some techniques for them.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Quote Originally Posted by Roadrunner View Post
    The AKKI has some some techniques for them.
    How about sharing a few with technical breakdowns?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Great timing! we spent some time working on this Wednesday night. Instead of the sprawl, just take a step back into a neutral bow. Bring your hand down on the back of his neck (which one depends on which side he's on) and he goes to ground, without you going with him.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Another common "shoot" takedown is too shoot to the side of the leg. Grab the leg and pull you off balance. so you end up doing the splits almost. Or they will just go behind you after they get the leg. The single and double leg can be done from the clinch, which I see more and more in class. Instead of the guy standing about 4 foot away, they tie you up and when you try to release, they get the takedown.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    How about sharing a few with technical breakdowns?
    At this point, we're not allowed to give a technical breakdown of tech's to those outside the AKKI. That is not to say we are elitist or anything like that. Mr. Mills and his Board of Directors are refining their ideas and taking their time with their explorations before sharing them across the broad spectrum of what is American Kenpo these days.
    I can say, that like you, we prefer to step offline from our attacker's center mass if possible. Sprawling is something we do, but only if we have realized the attack too late.
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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    Great timing! we spent some time working on this Wednesday night. Instead of the sprawl, just take a step back into a neutral bow. Bring your hand down on the back of his neck (which one depends on which side he's on) and he goes to ground, without you going with him.
    Is it really a step back? Seems like it would still be hard to avoid the grab if you just go backward, because he is coming straight at you.

    I would think that it would be better to sidestep, or angle out of the way of the shoot, and then what you said about bringing your hand down on his neck would be perfect. Maybe I'm not getting the full picture, what do you think?
    "Your kung fu's no good..."
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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    It was a step back. Whichever foot was in front, ends up in the back, as opposed to just moving the back leg farther back. Basically, it was an extension of a stance drill, with the goal to be stepping back and dropping your stance, and your center of gravity as a result, as fast as possible. They can get the front leg, but they can't wrap both and they don't have the leverage because of the low stance to be very effective. There were a number of nasty options to deal with the fact they had your front leg.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Quote Originally Posted by domino3700 View Post
    Is it really a step back? Seems like it would still be hard to avoid the grab if you just go backward, because he is coming straight at you.
    Mr. Speakman uses the term 'hip out', which involves stepping back, but sticking your butt way out to keep the opponent from getting his arms around your waist to break your back.

    I don't know if that's a common term or not since I'm new to the whole ground fighting thing.

    I'm still working on the various mounts and guards. It's a whole new vocabulary.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    It was a step back. Whichever foot was in front, ends up in the back, as opposed to just moving the back leg farther back. Basically, it was an extension of a stance drill, with the goal to be stepping back and dropping your stance, and your center of gravity as a result, as fast as possible. They can get the front leg, but they can't wrap both and they don't have the leverage because of the low stance to be very effective. There were a number of nasty options to deal with the fact they had your front leg.
    Okay, that makes sense now... you are saying that this is performed when you are already in a fighting stance, and then you take a full step back. We call that a step through reverse. I was looking at it from the standpoint of just standing in place, like in a technique line. In that aspect, I can see how it would be a great defense.

    Thanks for the clarification... and thanks for your input too, Amy.
    "Your kung fu's no good..."
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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    We train MMA students at our school, so we get to train against them all the time.

    Remember that shootfighters aren't used to having heavy drops of forearms or chops to the back of their necks, so I found that those strikes worked a lot.
    "Courage, my friends. 'Tis not too late to build a better world." - Tommy Douglas

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    As for defending against shoots. If you are a little late on the posting (driving both hands into them. Similar to a football stiff arm) you can do a cross face neck crank. It is very tough to practice this technique full speed because you are applying a joint lock to the guy's neck.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    I don't practice this as much as I should, but we have played with the Ram techniques and a shoot. The only experience I have with groundfighting is watching the UFC and a couple of fights in my youth that went to ground. If you don't think more people are using this go on you tube and look at all the clips of the schoolyard fights.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    Quote Originally Posted by crane557 View Post
    I don't practice this as much as I should, but we have played with the Ram techniques and a shoot. The only experience I have with groundfighting is watching the UFC and a couple of fights in my youth that went to ground. If you don't think more people are using this go on you tube and look at all the clips of the schoolyard fights.
    True. Monkey see, monkey do. Even if they aren't trained, people will still emulate what they see on TV....even if it does cost them a tooth or two.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    I teach both Kempo and MMA, two seperate classes. I have a few people in the Kempo class, but my MMA class is pack with 18-35 year olds. My point is many people are taking up some form of MMA. So it's more important now to have some kind of groundfight skills. As more and more of these (UFC-Pride) type shows get on tv. More and more people are going to take up the martial arts, especial those that do this type of fighting.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    First, many martial artists have to learn to make shooting in as difficult as possible. People who hold their kicks out for too long, rechamber for too long, or try to throw too many kicks at a time are easier targets to shoot in on.

    After throwing a kick, having the ability to immediatly lift a knee on someone shooting in can be beneficial.

    Once they shoot in (if you don't sprawl or get your legs out), try pushing down on the top of their head (or grab their ears and push down)

    If you practice your footwork, you may be able to pull off "tackle technique" and other techniques against a tackle.

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    Default Re: Defending the "Shoot"

    A "Technique" I came up with after watching a match many moons ago, and tested with success is as follows:

    Defense: Single Leg Shoot (As if you were already in a fighting stance, i.e. a neutral bow with one leg forward)

    1) As the opponent attempts to shoot your forward leg, push drag reverse slightly off line and pull your forward leg back into a cat stance simultaneiously executing double downward hammer fist strikes to either side of the opponents neck (trapezius muscle)
    *This creates distance and removes your leg from grappling range, it also helps redirect the forward momentum of the shoot downward forcing the shooter to use their hands to "catch" themselves or else do a face plant into the ground

    2) Immediately transition from the cat by executing a low round stomp-kick to the side of the shooters head and simply cover out.

    As stated, I've used this successfully. I can not remember the background of the fighter that pulled it off the first time I saw it, but I remember the shooter was from a Sambo camp and was knocked unconcious.

    One of many ways to deal with it I'm sure. Otherwise, a good sprawl can never really be over rated! LOL
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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