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Thread: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

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    LngDrnkOfSilence is offline
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    Default Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Andrew M. Goodwin - Student of the arts
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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    I like how he steps to his right to force his attacker to use his left leg to brace and opens up the attacker's centerline.
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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    I liked how he trapped the uke right hand under his right arm. That has some additional applications I can think of; like pulling the attacker into the palm heel. Good stuff! Thanks for posting!
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Maybe this is not the focus of the video, but anyway: He's doing nothing to establish his base in order to survive the attack. Poor alignment of the hips and heels off the floor are not going to help matters either.

    And am I the only one here who doesn't buy into the whole 'he's going to jab his fingers into my eyes if I don't check his hand'?

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Maybe this is not the focus of the video, but anyway: He's doing nothing to establish his base in order to survive the attack. Poor alignment of the hips and heels off the floor are not going to help matters either.

    And am I the only one here who doesn't buy into the whole 'he's going to jab his fingers into my eyes if I don't check his hand'?

    What video were you watching?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    What video were you watching?
    that's a trick question, right?

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    What video were you watching?
    This one. I'm seeing it too. And from a strictly kienmatic standpoint, the broad step to his 2:00-ish without a corrective measure brings his body too far past his own midline, misaligning himself. His own body intuitively doesn't like it, and does some pitty-patty steps through the rest of the execution to regain a center.

    D.
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    JamesB is offline
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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    This one. I'm seeing it too. And from a strictly kienmatic standpoint, the broad step to his 2:00-ish without a corrective measure brings his body too far past his own midline, misaligning himself. His own body intuitively doesn't like it, and does some pitty-patty steps through the rest of the execution to regain a center.

    D.
    glad someone else in agreement. I know he says in the video that he's 'establishing his base' but it looks anything but that. Upper body especially looks unstable.

    But I did get curious at part where he touches the opposite side of the head with his hand prior to the shoulder-roll....something in there or not?

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    glad someone else in agreement. I know he says in the video that he's 'establishing his base' but it looks anything but that. Upper body especially looks unstable.

    But I did get curious at part where he touches the opposite side of the head with his hand prior to the shoulder-roll....something in there or not?
    To observe the stability, use diffuse peripheral vision, and observe for sway and location...is he in place like a pole, allowing his own stability and the control manipulation in the technique to place the attacker where he needs him, or is he swaying in the wind a bit, then chasing him down.

    The thing on the head is a good grounding mechanism for upper extremity and movement of the whole upper carriage in harmony as a proprioceptive piece...but I'm not sure he's doing it for that reason, or even knows he is. Plus, as he speeds up, he drops it out and does a partial of it that loses some of the beneficial effect.

    D.

    PS - Since there's a vid going on the old man...find one of him doing circling wing. You go where he wants you; he doesn't waver, and doesn't need to chase you down.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    I much prefer a pin to the opponent's right arm. I used to do it without the pin several years ago, but now after working with Larry Tatum, I will never go back to the old method.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post

    The thing on the head is a good grounding mechanism for upper extremity and movement of the whole upper carriage in harmony as a proprioceptive piece...but I'm not sure he's doing it for that reason, or even knows he is. Plus, as he speeds up, he drops it out and does a partial of it that loses some of the beneficial effect.

    D.

    PS - Since there's a vid going on the old man...find one of him doing circling wing. You go where he wants you; he doesn't waver, and doesn't need to chase you down.
    He's Huk student and Huk does understand the proprioceptive benefit to the head touch as I've heard him discuss it.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Some great points here. This debate has helped me to realize why Kenpo is a "Martial Art" and not a "Martial Science".
    The difference between Mr. Johansson and SGM Parker in the execution may be do to physiology. SGM Parker was a big guy, Mr. Johansson doesn't look that big. I'm thinking that his adjustments may be do to his size.
    I liked the clip overall.
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    Dionysianexile is offline
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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    Some great points here. This debate has helped me to realize why Kenpo is a "Martial Art" and not a "Martial Science".
    The difference between Mr. Johansson and SGM Parker in the execution may be do to physiology. SGM Parker was a big guy, Mr. Johansson doesn't look that big. I'm thinking that his adjustments may be do to his size.
    I liked the clip overall.
    You would be right in seeing Mr. Johansson as not a big guy...id put him near 5' tops...

    That being said, he is a great, and fun guy to work with, if you ever get the chance

    But I did get curious at part where he touches the opposite side of the head with his hand prior to the shoulder-roll....something in there or not?
    This is taught at my school as well...although it doesnt appear to do anything, it does trap the attacker's right hand. I dont know if they will poke you in the eye with their thumb...but I could see the hand being pulled back to punch with... Either way, if you havnt, give it a try!

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    I always start from the beginning with Psychology of Confrontation and the Initial Assault.

    First, if the attack is a choke from the rear, the arms will be straight. The bent arm position will not support a squeezing, choking action from the rear, reaching over the victims shoulder. It will necessitate a straightening of the arms to effect strength in the hands, significant enough to meet the objective.

    Second, if in fact it is a choking, squeezing action with the hands, stepping forward in any direction will not be possible because you will force greater leverage in his hands pressing his fingers into the front of your throat at the thyroid hyoid, in effect assisting him in his attack.

    Third, because of these issues, the rest is moot, although the comments are all valid.

    Conclusion: As demonstrated, the technique is completely dysfunctional, ineffective, and potentially fatal.
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    jaybacca72 is offline
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    Talking Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    i have personally worked with ingmar many many times and he most certainly does know how to establish a base and he can apply his skill very well. i have dial up so it is hard for me to download this video but i can bet you guys that are critiquing him are probably off base or he is trying to explain a different perspective. and even if you do lift your heel off the ground that does not necessarily mean you have no base just watch a boxer move and hit. i will make a point of getting to view this video,but i also have us doing this move with huk dissecting it in a private lesson and hitting each other and he had no problems doing it on me and panos from greece who is a big guy.
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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by jaybacca72 View Post
    i have personally worked with ingmar many many times and he most certainly does know how to establish a base and he can apply his skill very well. i have dial up so it is hard for me to download this video but i can bet you guys that are critiquing him are probably off base or he is trying to explain a different perspective. and even if you do lift your heel off the ground that does not necessarily mean you have no base just watch a boxer move and hit. i will make a point of getting to view this video,but i also have us doing this move with huk dissecting it in a private lesson and hitting each other and he had no problems doing it on me and panos from greece who is a big guy.
    later
    Jason Arnold
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    I know Ignar as well, and he is a great guy and very talented. Unfortunately none of those things will repair an ill conceived technique as demonstrated. I stand by my comments. Now the smart ones will go out and try it to see if I'm correct.

    Attack from the rear with straight arms pulling and digging your fingers into the throat, and see how far they step. The harder they try to step, the harder you pull and dig in, just like in the real world. I doubt he is doing the technique the way Richard taught him. Huk knows better.

    We have a saying In SubLevel Four Kenpo. "One test is worth a thousand Kenpo experts opinions."
    Last edited by Doc; 02-01-2007 at 09:48 AM.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Jim Hanna is offline
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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    I personally like the way the tech is done. I understand what Doc is saying and can not argue with him, but, the truth of the matter, in my experience, is that most people don't know how to properly set a rear choke. In the video, the instructor does preface his demo by saying that there is a forward push to the choke.

    So, if an attacker grabs your neck from behind and is trying to drive you forward up against a wall for example, then I think that the technique as demonstrated could be successful.

    Now, if one assumes that it is for a properly set rear choke, then, no, it will fail and in fact can not be used. In the Tracy's curriculum, we have several techiques for a rear choke and another one would be the choice in that instance.

    Jim

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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    But if you listen Ingmar said that he was being choked as the attacker was pushng forward.
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    Default Re: Ingmar Johansson explores the technique Circling Wing

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    But if you listen Ingmar said that he was being choked as the attacker was pushng forward.
    If we add that caveat, of pushing forward, than it is no longer a "choking attack," but instead a 'pushing assault." Human anatomy is unique, complex, and sometimes counter-intuitive to the eye. The body will not accept the PNF sensor that is saying "choke," while pushing and squeezing and moving forward simultaneously. Therefore the attack scenario is still flawed, ineffective, and improbable.

    The most likely result, under the stated "adjustements," will be a pushing action with the thumbs (totally uninstinctive), and the quick realization that it doesn't work, and a reactionary pull back to effect the action.

    However, absent all of the above, if you are pushed and driven forward, stepping forward wihout a correcting mechanism to regain stability will place you in a postion unable to prevent the attack from continuing to push you forward. You will be incapable of stopping and turning under load.

    Take someone, effect the choke squeezing, digging the fingers in the front of the throat, and a pulling reaction to your victim attempting to move away with more pressure to control him/her. The victim will sucumb to the pressure almost immediately with no opportunity to react as the technique suggests.

    Now take someone, and attack them with the expressed intent of using your hands around the throat from the rear, to drive them forward into a wall, anticipating overcoming resistance with your body weight driving them forward.

    In SubLevel Four Kenpo, this is a technique that goes into a category we call a "Gendar Prone Assault." That is it is most likely a male versus female attack. Statistically, even a large male will not attack a smaller male with this type of assault from the rear barehanded. The more likely scenario is male on female to control and dominate the victim, with the choking incidental to the intent, and not necessarily the primary objective.

    The results are obvious to me, but perhaps the simple experiments will enlighten some with regards to the problems inherent in these two variations of the attack. Neither scenario may be overcome by the technique as presented, and a realistic scenario experiment will validate my perspectives.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Jim Hanna is offline
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    Default Re: the necessity of speaking correctly ;)

    Rear sleeper or carotid sleeper--now called a lateral vascular neck restraint

    stick or baton--now called a high impact therapeutic control device

    goose neck wrist lock--now called an escort hold

    rear two hand choke--now called a two hand push from behind that happened to encircle the suspect's neck

    Men are more likely to choke women --yep, from behind by strangers, from the front by lovers --at least in my experience.

    Jim

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