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Thread: Kiais, questions, debate?

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    Default Kiais, questions, debate?

    i saw a post on MT a while ago and thought a similar question but geared towards Kiais in Kenpo forms.. what is the point durring regular training? the only time i do it regularly is durring basics.. I can see the obvious benefit of conditioning. but durring techniques or forms is it to remind you to to exhale durring certain parts of the technique or kata? to impress judges at tournaments?

    if you're breathing properly shouldnt a Kiai be a moot point? because other than conditioning, and drying out your throat (and yes i know it comes from your diaphram not your throat i dont see much practical purpose. i know there are some noises that stimulate differet muscle groups air/blood/ki flow, but the ones iv heard arent nearly as loud.

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    I have to agree I was never big on the Kiai. I understand the use for it as a learning tool, power generation and release and even a use to startle an attacker. I was exposed to the Kotodama principles and have found them highly influential. If anyone is interested please follow the attached links for more info:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kotodama
    http://www.kototamabooks.com/
    http://www.aikidofaq.com/philosophy/a_section12.html
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    One major practical purpose is connecting your upper body and lower body during a strike. The constriction of the diaphram and midsection will generate more power by making a stronger connection with your lower body. You will then be able to genereated/transfer power from your legs more efficiently during a strike.
    More Shugyo!

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    You need to get into the habit of doing it, therefore "kiais" should be utilized during your training. The reason is proper breathing, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard, seen poeople exhale after the execution of a technique. You must exhale upon execution to render the best results.

    Now, I don't necessarily have our students say "kiai." I tell them they can make whatever noise or say whatever they like (for instance, in self-defense it's good to get into the habit of saying things like "stop!" and "call the police!" etc....) But it is important that your breathing, mental focus, and physical execution all be in sync to maximize your efforts.

    SGM Ed Parker called it the "Tea Kettle Principle." He paralleled our breathing to the process in a tea kettle, where heated water is converted to steam and then forced out of a small opening or spout in the kettle. The result is a more intense and better focused release of energy. This principle teaches that when steam or air is condensed, the force is greater. In a similar manner, condensed breathing, like steam under pressure, proportionately increases the force rendered.-*source:The Encyclopedia of Kenpo.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    You need to get into the habit of doing it, therefore "kiais" should be utilized during your training. The reason is proper breathing, but I can't tell you how many times I've heard, seen poeople exhale after the execution of a technique. You must exhale upon execution to render the best results.

    Now, I don't necessarily have our students say "kiai." I tell them they can make whatever noise or say whatever they like (for instance, in self-defense it's good to get into the habit of saying things like "stop!" and "call the police!" etc....) But it is important that your breathing, mental focus, and physical execution all be in sync to maximize your efforts.

    SGM Ed Parker called it the "Tea Kettle Principle." He paralleled our breathing to the process in a tea kettle, where heated water is converted to steam and then forced out of a small opening or spout in the kettle. The result is a more intense and better focused release of energy. This principle teaches that when steam or air is condensed, the force is greater. In a similar manner, condensed breathing, like steam under pressure, proportionately increases the force rendered.-*source:The Encyclopedia of Kenpo.

    I have read Mr. Parker's reference to the tea kettle. In my own training I am always more akin to use sounds more like a boxer. That is just want came from me naturally since I was very young in the arts.
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Kiah's are a must.

    A Kiah will increase the power of a strike, can initimidate an attacker, and helps when we get hit (that is why it is natural for an experienced uki to make that sound voluntarily when they get hit).

    Here is when Kiah's get rediculous and useless: when people scream their lungs out for say 10 seconds to try to impress judges during a forms competition in a tournament. Note that a proper Kiah (or whatever sound you make) should be quick.
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Having come up first in an Okinawan system, we did plenty of them, and realistically I'm glad for the lessons they taught me in terms of powerful breathing from the diaphragm tensioning of the body when being hit.

    In kenpo, though, I've come to learn to hit via the power generation methods inertial, rotational, and gravitational engagement, rather than a clenching of the body. I have learned to hit harder being relaxed.

    However, I have found that an explosive type of exhalation mandatory when taking a heavy shot to the body. Perhaps more situps are in order, LOL.

    But I agree 100% with Mr. Seabrook, and retch at the vocal kiai's done for dramatic affects - the lessons of the kiai are internal. I teach my students proper breathing, but do not require a kiai as it can constipate motion. Ive found proper alignment and proper use of anatomy to be a superior power source.

    Good topic,

    Steven Brown
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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    we don't kiai in either of the chinese systems i study, but then again we spend a lot (A LOT) of time and practice on breathing and posture to ensure its integrated into our fighting style. that fits nicely into my kenpo...
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    I was always taught that a Kiai does three things:

    1. Scares the opponent
    2. Makes your strikes stronger
    3. If you were to be hit in the stomach at the same time, those muscles would be tight so it would not hurt as much. I know that sounds really generic but I can't figure out a better way to say it right now.

    I always tell the kids to Kiai and for the most part they enjoy it. I tell the adults that they have the option of kiaiing since most of them think that it is foolish to make a sound like that.

    I always have remembered that my first instructor Karol Petro would always grunt but never kiai. He kind of had me hooked on that for a while.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Kiah's are a must.

    A Kiah will increase the power of a strike, can initimidate an attacker, and helps when we get hit (that is why it is natural for an experienced uki to make that sound voluntarily when they get hit).

    Here is when Kiah's get rediculous and useless: when people scream their lungs out for say 10 seconds to try to impress judges during a forms competition in a tournament. Note that a proper Kiah (or whatever sound you make) should be quick.
    I am in complete agreement. I always kiah when I am doing a technique and when being an uki. I must admit that unless there's a body in front of me, I often don't when I'm practicing alone, but almost always when on a body.

    I also judged an open tournament once where I got stuck in the hard style area and my head throbbed by the end of the day. The entended yell (it wasn'ta kiah, if you ask me) done by all the competitors was awful.

    My dad taught me how to kiah. He said he knew someone who could kiah a bird out of a tree. It's a short burst that's all diaphragm and stomach muscles, very low tone that projects energy and power.

    Even though I'm female, I can usually kiah louder than most everyone in class. (and it's not girlie sounding either!)

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    I was always taught that a Kiai does three things:

    1. Scares the opponent
    2. Makes your strikes stronger
    3. If you were to be hit in the stomach at the same time, those muscles would be tight so it would not hurt as much. I know that sounds really generic but I can't figure out a better way to say it right now.

    .
    That pretty much sums it up. In reference to #3 it helps keep you from having the "wind" knocked out of you as a result of the diaphram spasming, but all in all...I say you did a pretty good job.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    3. If you were to be hit in the stomach at the same time, those muscles would be tight so it would not hurt as much. I know that sounds really generic but I can't figure out a better way to say it right now.
    not true for all 'hits' to the stomach... punches with clenched fist yes, the tightened muscles can resist the blow and protect internal organs.

    but, not so for a slicing palm where the knive edge of your hand will align with the striated muscle tissue of your opponent and feel like its cutting through. this is more effective and will hurt more with contracted abdominal muscles.
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    I love the Kiai.

    Regards,

    Mike

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post

    but, not so for a slicing palm where the knive edge of your hand will align with the striated muscle tissue of your opponent and feel like its cutting through. this is more effective and will hurt more with contracted abdominal muscles.
    I have never heard of a "slicing" heal palm before. In know there are inward and outward horizontal heal palms and inward and outward diagonal downward and upward heal palms. Or is it like a heal palm claw? Can you elaborate a little on this "slicing" one?
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    thats because its a slicing palm, not a slicing heel palm.

    think of an outward handsword (palm down) that slices through the target area rather than making direct contact.
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    thats because its a slicing palm, not a slicing heel palm.

    think of an outward handsword (palm down) that slices through the target area rather than making direct contact.
    Ok I get what you are trying to say.

    1. But why would you want to hit somthing that big (stomach) with something else that is also large (the palm of the hand) instead of with a heal palm?
    2. You should hit through with every strike no matter what
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate View Post
    Ok I get what you are trying to say.

    1. But why would you want to hit somthing that big (stomach) with something else that is also large (the palm of the hand) instead of with a heal palm?
    2. You should hit through with every strike no matter what
    one word: Reversing Circles (err, umm make that reversingcircles)
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    Quote Originally Posted by pete View Post
    one word: Reversing Circles (err, umm make that reversingcircles)

    ooooooooooooooo now i've got you. Not word, technique. These slicing (I was always taught heal palms) but palms work too. They are more braced, which mean means one word.....OUCH.
    Last edited by parkerkarate; 01-11-2007 at 01:11 PM.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    heel

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    Default Re: Kiais, questions, debate?

    you must excuse my good friend david, spellink is not his fortay~
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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