View Poll Results: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

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Thread: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

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    Default Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    It was suggested that this topic become it's own thread and it probably should be. SO..here it is.
    The question is mostly geared towards the SL-4 folks, but please don't hesitate to add you 0.02 regardless of school of thought.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    There are things in Raining Lance that are odd, but it does present a lesson, and is workable. One of the lessons presented in this technique is to check the weapon.

    Keep your hand on the weapon.
    Keep your hand on the weapon.
    Keep your hand on the weapon.

    If you were ever presented with an overhead knife attack, you might not run this technique. You quite possibly would wish to 'disarm' the attacker before doing anything else. Once the shiny, pointing thing is on the ground, you can pummel the bad guy in any way you wish.

    Kenpo is a checking system, so this technique, and the other lance techniques teach us methods of checking a weapon. When presented with a knife attack - we might choose a different course of action.

    Here's my $0.02 - I imagine that's not two cents worth of knowledge, so anyone who has my change, can keep it.
    eilana1 likes this.

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    The notes I have are as follows:

    - Study the similarities and differences between this and Capturing the storm.

    - Apex of a circle is important in relation to this technique.

    - Teaches you about the dimentional stages of action (dropping height zone to enhance the force of your knee)

    - #1 rule with a weapon ... get out of the line of attack!!!!

    In what way are you suggesting it is unworkable?
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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    I see two votes for "yes" but no post explaining why. I think the thread may be a little more productive if folks were to list their reasoning behind their vote.

    When you vote please include at least a short explanation. If you've already voted you can still post as to your reasoning.

    Thanks!
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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    I see two votes for "yes" but no post explaining why. I think the thread may be a little more productive if folks were to list their reasoning behind their vote.

    When you vote please include at least a short explanation. If you've already voted you can still post as to your reasoning.

    Thanks!
    I'm fairly certain that this question came about because of the thoughts on the BASICS - PARRIES thread. Having not read all of those posts, and having no desire to do so, it would help if you would explain what point you are trying to prove or disprove.

    Here is the technique from the Kenpotalk reference guide, and notes about how I learned the technique.
    Raining Lance (Front- Right Step-Through Overhead Knife)
    1. An attacker at 12 o'clock comes at you with a right step-through overhead knife attack.

    2. Step your left foot to 10:30 into a left neutral bow to out of the Line of Attack. As you move, execute a right outward parry to the outside of your attacker's right arm.
    I do not execute a right outward parry - I learned the technique with a left inward parry, which uses the complementary angle of an outstretched right arm to guide the weapon to the attacker's thigh.
    3. With the overhead attack still in motion, pivot to your right into a horse stance as your left assists your right and guides the knife into your attacker's right thigh.

    4. Pivot into a left forward bow facing 12 o'clock as you execute a right inward elbow to your attacker's sternum as your left hand pins your attacker's right hand to keep the knife in his thigh.

    5. Have your right hand drop to check your attacker's right hand and knife as your left hand tracks up and executes a palm up tiger's mouth strike to your attacker's throat.

    6. Switch your hands again so your left hand grabs your attacker's testicles as your right hand circles counterclockwise and executes a crab hand pinch (palm facing your attacker) to hook and pinch your attacker's eyes.
    I do not execute a left grab to the testicles. I keep my left hand on the attackers right wrist, hopefully pinning that wrist to the knife grip, which is planted in the attackers right thigh.
    7. Your right foot steps forward into a cat stance facing 12 o'clock as your left hand contours up your attacker's right arm and executes a left inner wrist strike to your attacker's throat. (Your right hand returns to continue pressing the knife into your attacker's right leg.)
    I execute a step through foot maneuver here, while grabbing the attackers chin or nose, and anchoring down and back to spread the attacker across the 'table' of my right thigh.
    8. Step your right foot to 12 o'clock into a right close kneel as your left wrist hooks onto your attacker's neck and uses their right shoulder as a fulcrum to taken them over your right knee.

    9. Execute a right downward diagonal hammerfist to your attacker's heart. (Your left hand should be pinning and controlling your attacker.
    I strike the attackers left collar bone with the hammerfist strike. My left hand is continuing to hold the attackers hand on that knife.
    10. Execute a left palm strike to the right side of your attacker's jaw as your right hand pulls the knife from your attacker's thigh.

    11. From your close kneel, cross out to 7:30.

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    I learned it with a left inward parry as well.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Thanks for posting the description

    In Shaolin Kempo, we have a similar technique, at least the initla move is similar... we

    step left to 1030
    use a right outward parry to guid the knife into the groin or thigh. I think we are looking to get them more bent over at the waist here than in Raining Lance.

    our technique goes on to attack from the outside whereas it seems RL technique opens them back up and stays inside? I really like that inward elbow, I'll be trying that as soon as I get back in the dojo.

    I'm very curious for the SL-4 perspective. I wouldn't be surprised if they did not include this techqnique at all, or if it is significantly altered. I'm pretty sure that they do not use throat and eye attacks or stabbing an attacker with his own weapon. It doesn't fit the paradigm...

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    "Anatomically unworkable"? No.

    Functionally Practical? Perhaps not the single most practical approach to dealing with an edged weapon I have encountered, but far from the worst, either.

    Odds against ever being attacked in the manner? Well, unless you've made an enemy of Anthony Perkins or his immediate descendants, probably so insignificant as to bearly even be worthy of mentioning. This type of attack occurs primarily in movies. (and even then only by psychos!)
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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    This type of attack occurs primarily in movies. (and even then only by psychos!)
    I asked this too, but I was told that people do indeed attack this way.

    I can't say as I've ever been attacked this way, but I haven't been attacked with a knife at all, so what do I know?

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    Odds against ever being attacked in the manner? Well, unless you've made an enemy of Anthony Perkins or his immediate descendants, probably so insignificant as to bearly even be worthy of mentioning. This type of attack occurs primarily in movies. (and even then only by psychos!)
    I see this written all the time. It's probably true if you're being attacked by a trained knifer. As a physician and as a coroner most of the knife attacks I've dealt with and all of the knife deaths I've dealt with have involved the overhead "ice pick" style attack. In my experience, outside of prison and biker bars this is actually the most common knife attack.

    respectfully,

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Raining Claw is an excellent technique - there is so much to it. We borrow the force of the overhead knife attack as the knife runs into the attacker's thigh. At that point, the inward elbow is there should the opponent take a deap breath while trying to pull the knife out even though we are keeping it checked with our left hand.

    Anatomially incorrect? Gosh no.
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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodoc View Post
    I see this written all the time. It's probably true if you're being attacked by a trained knifer. As a physician and as a coroner most of the knife attacks I've dealt with and all of the knife deaths I've dealt with have involved the overhead "ice pick" style attack. In my experience, outside of prison and biker bars this is actually the most common knife attack.

    respectfully,

    Jeff
    From the angle of the knife wounds, would you say the majority of these deaths were from stabs delivered from a standing position or while on the ground?

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    I don't really know this tech, per se, but I think adding the left perry first makes a big difference.
    Also a couple of years ago I working, and a chef was joking around with some people and said "What would you do if someone just snapped and came at you with a knife, like this?" ( and simulated the overhand knife attack). He must've thought that most people wouldn't know how to avoid the attack-which they didn't.
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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Anatomially incorrect? Gosh no.
    Just to put this in a little context, the phrase "anatomically unworkabe" as quoted in the topic, is a reference to something Dr. Chapel wrote in the "Parries" thread.

    Like most things he writes (or says) he has a very specific definition that might not be exactly what anybody would take that phrase to mean if used in conversation. You can get the idea of what it means, because after all we do speak english, but he approaches this as an academic discipline and therefore has very exact definitions of terms and all of the criteria for something to meet the classification of "anatomically unworkable" cannot be assumed from the generally accepted definitions of the words themselves.

    For example he described (just to oversimplify here) the conversion of a parry into a check in the Parries thread as "Anatomically unworkable", but obviously you can move your body in exactly the way described, so "A.U" clearly doesn't mean "you body won't move that way".

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sentinel View Post
    From the angle of the knife wounds, would you say the majority of these deaths were from stabs delivered from a standing position or while on the ground?
    One, lying on the couch. The others started standing. Most people canntot calmly kill another person so adrenalin levels are very high. If you look at inexperienced or terrified people fighting even without weapons the default human attack is a big looping overhead or sideways punch (Haymaker). I don't know it as a fact but I assume that this is why overhead knife attacks are so common statistically. (Doc published a source for these statistics elsewhere.) Fortunately there just are not that many trained Knifers or cool calm psychopaths attacking people with knives.

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Raining Claw is an excellent technique - there is so much to it. We borrow the force of the overhead knife attack as the knife runs into the attacker's thigh. At that point, the inward elbow is there should the opponent take a deap breath while trying to pull the knife out even though we are keeping it checked with our left hand.

    Anatomially incorrect? Gosh no.
    I always look at the elbow as a means of knocking the attacker back on his heels diminishing the strength of his base while I solidify mine.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpodoc View Post
    I always look at the elbow as a means of knocking the attacker back on his heels diminishing the strength of his base while I solidify mine.

    Jeff
    You are absolutely correct Jeff, I was just making a point that the elbow is naturally the next move after the knife to the thigh should the opponent take that deap breath and try to remove the knife. In other words, that is why it is the next move in the sequence of the technique. Larry Tatum taught me that.
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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    ... "anatomically unworkabe" ... is a reference to something Dr. Chapel wrote ... he has a very specific definition ... For example he described (just to oversimplify here) the conversion of a parry into a check in the Parries thread as "Anatomically unworkable", but obviously you can move your body in exactly the way described, so "A.U" clearly doesn't mean "you body won't move that way".
    I think this is key to answering the question. RL, and other techs may work in some cases, and they do teach a lot of good motion, principles and concepts in application. But they can be improved with good internal structure.

    Raining Lance is, to my way of thinking, anatomically unworkable because it is unreliable in two general areas. First, regardless of what parry sequence you open with, you have to press down and in with the left while guiding with the right to get him to stick the knife solidly in his leg. Your footwork and posture support this motion, but the extension (not overextension) of the arms and cw torque of the left forearm to me seems to break down your structure.

    The second area it fails is that it depends on the atttacker comeing at a prescribed angle and direction and only moving in a prescribed manner. His structure must fall within a narrow set of parameters, or the tech fails. It doesn't take into account the twisting, turning, panicked contortions of a person in a knife fight. And as he turns, so does that blade. The opening of this tech leaves both your arms vulnerable to incidental cuts- probably unintentional, but possibly seriouse.

    Anatomical issues aside, this technique is too complex by far to be used in a real situation. I like my weapons techniques and tactics to be simple, direct and devastating, because I'll be at least as panicked as he is if it happens.

    Again, I'm not as experienced or advanced as many here who think this is effective. It's just my opinion, take it for what it's worth and decide for yourself. I just have a problem with knife defenses where I have to spit out my gum before running the technique.

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    One of the reasons we use the right arm to guide the weapon to the attackers thigh, is because the attacker may twist or turn the weapon. Also, the placement of the right arm is such that if it does get cut, it gets cut along the backside of the arm, where, hopefully, it will not be fatal.

    The technique is very prescribed. The attack is very prescribed. As all of our self-defense techniques, we are taught specific responses for specific attacks. This 'prescribed for prescribed' method of learning is the 'stage-setting' step of learning. Hopefully, as we advance in our studies, we learn to respond in a spontaneous manner.

    And as mentioned before ... American Kenpo is a 'checking system'. Our techniques are built to show us how to check weapons. In application, I was told we would / should disarm the weapon first, before running the technique.

    I have not been studying long enough to tell you what the correct disarm tactic would be for this type of attack. But, I have seen glipses of that knowledge and heard hints about that knowledge while observing others; specifically in Form 6.

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    Default Re: Is "Raining Lance" Anatomically Unworkable?

    michaeledward, most of your post was a good explanation of, and in agreement with, my first paragraph- "RL, and other techs may work in some cases, and they do teach a lot of good motion, principles and concepts in application." However, I have to disagree with one statement:

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    One of the reasons we use the right arm to guide the weapon to the attackers thigh, is because the attacker may twist or turn the weapon. Also, the placement of the right arm is such that if it does get cut, it gets cut along the backside of the arm, where, hopefully, it will not be fatal.
    The knife in this attack would be more likely to hook around and cut the inside (anterior) of the right arm, and could easily cut any part of the left forearm. One of the reasons I like the "icepick" grip is its' ability to hook around and cut, so that keeping the backs of the arms toward your opponent in a knife encounter does not work. This can also occur accidentally.

    I actually think this tech would work better against an MS-13 type with a machette and an overhead slashing assault. Heavier weapon, more momentum, not easily turned, and more easily disarmed if it slices his leg, than the knife which has to penetrate and stick solidly for the tech to work.

    My .02- you got my change?

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