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Thread: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

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    Default What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    It's about the over-rated nature of this Chi thing...

    About every month, someone on these boards comes up with another inquiry about generating internal power through mystical processes. I have to assume this is while they continue to practice sloppy basics, but that's another story.

    It's been my own private experience that there is such an esoteric force of life embodied in living matter that can be accessed and focused. I also think it's a silly idea, with some wierd side effects most people SEEKING this contact are ill-prepared to contend with (side effects may include mental breakdowns resulting from the movement of 100 watts of chi through a 10 watt body, or priap...aw, nevermind).

    We have, in American microwave fashion, taken some of the sacred spiritual practices of cultures thousands of years older than our own, and reduced them to consumer items for pop consumption. Take Yoga...positions used in conjunction with ascetic philosophies and practices, geared at awakening and directing sacred spiritual energies of the body to allow/empower an evoluition of souldto higher levels of consciousness and god-awareness...passed on for generations by the wise men of ancient India to initiates of their sects...and now available by some 18 year old be-bop blonde at the local health club for dollars an hour.

    I tried the consumerist approach with Chi, and had some silly things happen. I even went to some honorable sources...one of the sons of a venerable Chinese medicine family who publishes instructional texts worldwide, and is the worlds leading manufacturer of TCM herbal meds...Tai Chi and Taoism since his earliest memories, gave me a couple of Daoist texts with exercises to recognize and raise various energies in the body. It seems the really determined practitioners only had 2 things on their minds...immortality, and the perfect, sustainable, non-ejaculatory erection. As for the first, I'm told I look young for my age (aside from an expanding bald spot). As for the second, I can't imagine why someone would want this in the first place (the concepts is that one helps lead to the other...jing, wei, etc., working together to make you live a really long time; but what about the simple joys of life?).

    So, for my final analysis,I would offer this:

    1. Eat right, stay fit, and mind your cholesterol for the first.
    2. For the second, Ask Bob Dole.

    Good luck, and go back to work on the little things...poor foundations crumble under minimal stresses.

    D.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    It's about the over-rated nature of this Chi thing...

    About every month, someone on these boards comes up with another inquiry about generating internal power through mystical processes. I have to assume this is while they continue to practice sloppy basics, but that's another story.
    You know what they say about "assuming" things. Why would you think that just because someone finds more interest in the internal part of the art that they automatically have sloppy basics? That's awful presumptive. I don't personally subscribe to "mysticism" but I don't knock those that do. Their contributions are no less important in the study of the arts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house
    It's been my own private experience that there is such an esoteric force of life embodied in living matter that can be accessed and focused. I also think it's a silly idea, with some wierd side effects most people SEEKING this contact are ill-prepared to contend with (side effects may include mental breakdowns resulting from the movement of 100 watts of chi through a 10 watt body, or priap...aw, nevermind).

    We have, in American microwave fashion, taken some of the sacred spiritual practices of cultures thousands of years older than our own, and reduced them to consumer items for pop consumption. Take Yoga...positions used in conjunction with ascetic philosophies and practices, geared at awakening and directing sacred spiritual energies of the body to allow/empower an evoluition of souldto higher levels of consciousness and god-awareness...passed on for generations by the wise men of ancient India to initiates of their sects...and now available by some 18 year old be-bop blonde at the local health club for dollars an hour.

    I tried the consumerist approach with Chi, and had some silly things happen. I even went to some honorable sources...one of the sons of a venerable Chinese medicine family who publishes instructional texts worldwide, and is the worlds leading manufacturer of TCM herbal meds...Tai Chi and Taoism since his earliest memories, gave me a couple of Daoist texts with exercises to recognize and raise various energies in the body. It seems the really determined practitioners only had 2 things on their minds...immortality, and the perfect, sustainable, non-ejaculatory erection. As for the first, I'm told I look young for my age (aside from an expanding bald spot). As for the second, I can't imagine why someone would want this in the first place (the concepts is that one helps lead to the other...jing, wei, etc., working together to make you live a really long time; but what about the simple joys of life?).

    So, for my final analysis,I would offer this:

    1. Eat right, stay fit, and mind your cholesterol for the first.
    2. For the second, Ask Bob Dole.

    Good luck, and go back to work on the little things...poor foundations crumble under minimal stresses.

    D.
    Obviously, the "internal" aspect of the arts isn't for everyone. As I said, I do not personally subscribe to them. I do however, respect the right of others to do so if they choose.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    You know what they say about "assuming" things. Why would you think that just because someone finds more interest in the internal part of the art that they automatically have sloppy basics? That's awful presumptive. I don't personally subscribe to "mysticism" but I don't knock those that do. Their contributions are no less important in the study of the arts.



    Obviously, the "internal" aspect of the arts isn't for everyone. As I said, I do not personally subscribe to them. I do however, respect the right of others to do so if they choose.
    You pretty much said all I had to say. I do find the idea of practising the internal aspects to maintain or improve my current level of health is attractive. I don't care for immortality but I do want to enjoy my children and hopefully some day my grandchildren. Eating right and exercise is a start but our food source is contaminated as is our air and our water. If internal practise can support my body in dealing with our environmental toxins then great.

    As for my martial arts practise, I don't see why one should not use internal practise to support what we are doing on the outside. If your basics suck then internal energy won't help. Really, if you don't have the discipline to ensure you have strong basics then you won't be able to stick with an internal routine long enough to get anything out of it anyhow.

    Just my two cents.

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    Default Re: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    Mod. Note.
    Please, keep the conversation polite and respectful.

    Parkerkarate
    KenpoTalk Moderator

    Dr. Dave, I can understand where you are coming from, but at the same time each of us must be repectful to another.
    Last edited by parkerkarate; 11-27-2006 at 02:39 PM.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    We have, in American microwave fashion, taken some of the sacred spiritual practices of cultures thousands of years older than our own, and reduced them to consumer items for pop consumption. Take Yoga...positions used in conjunction with ascetic philosophies and practices, geared at awakening and directing sacred spiritual energies of the body to allow/empower an evoluition of souldto higher levels of consciousness and god-awareness...passed on for generations by the wise men of ancient India to initiates of their sects...and now available by some 18 year old be-bop blonde at the local health club for dollars an hour.

    D.
    Actually, I think this observation is right on target. My wife and I have been observing this for quite some time now. Seems every week there is a new yoga studio opening up in our neighborhood here in San Francisco. I think there is a real connection that has been lost between what arts such as Yoga are meant to be, and what they have become for the consumeristic West, with the good 'ol USA leading the way. I think this is much the same with Tai Chi and the Chinese internal arts as well.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

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    Default Re: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    You know what they say about "assuming" things. Why would you think that just because someone finds more interest in the internal part of the art that they automatically have sloppy basics? That's awful presumptive. I don't personally subscribe to "mysticism" but I don't knock those that do. Their contributions are no less important in the study of the arts.



    Obviously, the "internal" aspect of the arts isn't for everyone. As I said, I do not personally subscribe to them. I do however, respect the right of others to do so if they choose.
    As a closet mystic myself, I don't knock mysticism. I encourage earnest exploration of spiritual paths for those who are willing to put the work into it. Most attempt to use a consumerist version as a shortcut to a life examined. "I don't have to dig deep, wrestle my demons, and emerge victorious from the Dark Night of the Soul...I'll just watch a Wayne Dyer video, instead."

    You will also never find a quote by me anywhere saying that I do not practice the internal components of the arts. Kenpo is sorely lacking in an internal tradition (at least, consumeristically). So folks often have to look outside the system to complement it -- Tai Chi, Yoga, alternative paths. My first kempo lessons in Hawaii as a kid were at a Hongwanji temple school, and my arts have been infused with some rather bazoo models of esoteric physiology since. But I never teach it, write about it, or hold satsang around it, because these developments within the core of ones being are subjective songs of the soul, best kept there.

    I don't wear my religion/spirituality on my sleeve. The endless search for the cultivation of Chi via ancient mystery schools is not something to be toyed with for a tryste with the intent of gaining more power in a punch. And, unfortunately, many mask their true intent behind claims of seeking better health. Many more on these boards, still, are young men and women in the angst of life development who would do better to look at hard realities plainly, and develop simple strategies for moving on in life, than they would be to lose their minds by fractionating attention into potentially dangerous distractions.

    And I would avoid assuming that my "lousy basics" message applies only to newbies seeking chi. Pretty much wherever I go as I travel about, I see sloppy basics. And just when I think, after 35 years of trying, I finally have made a dent in my own fundamentals, a short visit to Doc knocks me back down to "embarassed white belt" status around my own basics.

    You can't fire a cannon out of a canoe...if you want to build a battleship, it takes basics. Whether or not you seek chi.

    Dave
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    Dr. Dave, I'm not sure if you are being xenophobic or introspective, or whether you are lumping all internal practitioners and practices into the same model here. Are you saying this aspect of the martial arts is not worth looking into? That it has no value to the average practitioner, or to anyone?

    I have looked into the internal aspects enough to have my own opinions, based on experience. I do not try to cultivate qi as a force in the sense most (and apparently you are one of these) think of it. However, having an awareness of it can help in many ways, including improving the basics that you seem to feel it harms. A degree of internal awareness is, in my opinion, essential to perfecting the structure and musclular presentation required to optimize any basic move.

    There have been several conversations on these boards concerning this, all of them hammefing on correct basics internally and externally, in structure and movement, in understanding and application. I agree with you to some extent, the "microwave mentality" is a bad thing with internal principles. But you seem to be too narrow in your focus, looking only at qi movement as a force, and too broad in your scope if you are saying all martial artists are microwaving their qi.

    Dan C

    edit: ok, your post to CC while I was writing this has clarified a few things here. I'll look at it closer and get back...
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    The endless search for the cultivation of Chi via ancient mystery schools is not something to be toyed with for a tryste with the intent of gaining more power in a punch. And, unfortunately, many mask their true intent behind claims of seeking better health. Many more on these boards, still, are young men and women in the angst of life development who would do better to look at hard realities plainly, and develop simple strategies for moving on in life, than they would be to lose their minds by fractionating attention into potentially dangerous distractions.

    And I would avoid assuming that my "lousy basics" message applies only to newbies seeking chi. Pretty much wherever I go as I travel about, I see sloppy basics. And just when I think, after 35 years of trying, I finally have made a dent in my own fundamentals, a short visit to Doc knocks me back down to "embarassed white belt" status around my own basics.
    That clarifies a lot. You had me worried there for a bit. Putting your previouse post in this context, I'd have to say I agree with you. One of the reasons I don't strive for qi development as its' own end, or as a force in fighting. I don't have a good guide to do this, and I don't have the time to do it right any how. However, I do maintain that without some experience in this area, I'd probably never been receptive to the things Doc and others have said here that have helped me in many ways. I had to know something wasn't right to be looking in the first place, and that knowlege comes from looking internally.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: What's the big deal about Cheese, anyway? (caution...PG-13 content)

    Apparently I and a few others are misinterpretting your message.

    Yes, basics are the core. Basics, basics, basics, and more basics. I spend at minimum 15 minutes at the beginning of class drilling them. If I'm not satisfied with what I see then the whole class may end up being nothing but basics. I think perhaps we are on the same page here.

    Chi/Qi is open to the interpretation of the individual. Many people see it as many different things. But if you're going to criticize "Buffy the Yoga Teacher" for not adhereing to staunch traditional Eastern methodology, then you better include Western Martial Arts too.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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