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Thread: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

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    Default Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    One of the best things you can learn from the game ofpool is the Chaos Theory , that is where the unkown is bound to happen and you have no control over it. Take the break, you know you want a ball to go down a pocket, some people can actually pick the ball that will drop, but what of the other 14 balls and the cue ball how much control do we have over them. This is a valuable lesson for the Kenpo pratcioner, the attacker punches, you block it and hit him in the torso, we expect certain limbes to to move in a certain path from our actions, but some times other things happen do to unknown or unseen variables.

    Any thoughts on this?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    One of the best things you can learn from the game ofpool is the Chaos Theory , that is where the unkown is bound to happen and you have no control over it. Take the break, you know you want a ball to go down a pocket, some people can actually pick the ball that will drop, but what of the other 14 balls and the cue ball how much control do we have over them. This is a valuable lesson for the Kenpo pratcioner, the attacker punches, you block it and hit him in the torso, we expect certain limbes to to move in a certain path from our actions, but some times other things happen do to unknown or unseen variables.

    Any thoughts on this?
    Hit him with the pool cue!



    Seriousely, it's a good analogy. Someone once said "Expect chaos! Train in chaos! Thrive in chaos!"

    Whoever it was, he was pretty smart!

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Pool is all abount angles, and so is kenpo. Just like in pool you have options of availablility for your shots.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    SifuDangeRuss is offline
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    Talking Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    You also must plan ahead for your next shot, by "leaving" the cueball in a strategic location, to facilitate your next shot, after having sunk the first....

    Or having no clear, clean availible shot...you need to make sure and leave no good shot for your opponent.

    (See? I can stay on topic if I must...I simply try to season my tendancy for Soap Box Tyrades with a bit of humor, so as to not seem likeI take myself too seriously, Rob)

    and Dan?

    *...Still snickering over the "hit 'em with the cue" comment.

    Kenpo is always unpredictable.
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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    You also must plan ahead for your next shot, by "leaving" the cueball in a strategic location, to facilitate your next shot, after having sunk the first....
    that's actually one of my favorite teaching analogies.

    As far as dealing with the chaos and unknown variables, I think Rob makes a valid point. How many times, especially when working with someone that may not be familiar with a certain techinque, do they react in a way that is not the "prescribed" response to your action forcing you to adapt.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

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    Thumbs up Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpotex View Post
    that's actually one of my favorite teaching analogies.

    As far as dealing with the chaos and unknown variables, I think Rob makes a valid point. How many times, especially when working with someone that may not be familiar with a certain techinque, do they react in a way that is not the "prescribed" response to your action forcing you to adapt.
    Durned amatuers anyway. Didn't they read the Attackers Manual? It always is a source of amusement to me, when I hear an instructor...(whether it be one of my own less experienced ones or at another school) admonishing their students for NOT attacking correctly!

    "No. No. No. That' s not the way to punch me!"

    *..shaking my head...*

    Appearently it was the natural way for that person. So deal with it.

    Good point KenpoTex. Fortunately most good kenpoists become reasonably adept at altering/tailoring a technique to fit the situation, as the situation continues to change.
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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    and Dan? *...Still snickering over the "hit 'em with the cue" comment. Kenpo is always unpredictable.
    I get that from my last instructor, who told me "If you find yourself in a fair fight, you just didn't prepare well enough!"

    Dan C
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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Greetings!

    Actually, the game of pool is governed by classical mechanics, not chaos theory. Thus if you hit the set of balls in a prescise manner, you'll get a very predictable result.

    You may misalign a little and not get the ball in, yet it is very close to the bucket, specially if you're skilled...

    Skilled pool players put the balls in the bucket much more often than not.

    The "chaos" comes from poor observation skills, poor understanding of how the balls react, and poor execution skills.

    So it is still a very valid analogy.


    Sincerely,

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    It always is a source of amusement to me, when I hear an instructor...(whether it be one of my own less experienced ones or at another school) admonishing their students for NOT attacking correctly!

    "No. No. No. That' s not the way to punch me!"
    Well, I have to interject here. People will throw punches that fall short of the mark or are so painfully slow that you can literally telegraph your technique.

    A punch that stops short of the mark requires little to no action.

    So there's something to be said about throwing an attack right.

    Hmph.

    --Amy

    P.S. Professormental -- you've been watching Numberts too, I see! LOL.
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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by profesormental View Post
    Greetings!

    Actually, the game of pool is governed by classical mechanics, not chaos theory. Thus if you hit the set of balls in a prescise manner, you'll get a very predictable result.

    You may misalign a little and not get the ball in, yet it is very close to the bucket, specially if you're skilled...

    Skilled pool players put the balls in the bucket much more often than not.

    The "chaos" comes from poor observation skills, poor understanding of how the balls react, and poor execution skills.

    So it is still a very valid analogy.


    Sincerely,

    Juan M. Mercado
    The chaos occurs during the break since their are 16 balls in play, no one can know what every single ball is going to do, and if the situation is duplicated will everything occur in the exact same fashion?
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Talking Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    Well, I have to interject here. People will throw punches that fall short of the mark or are so painfully slow that you can literally telegraph your technique.

    A punch that stops short of the mark requires little to no action.

    So there's something to be said about throwing an attack right.

    Hmph.

    --Amy
    Sure...and some (really pathetic folks) or people who are drunk, inexperienced at fighting, uncoordinated or just in an uncontrolled rage, throw those short punches outside of class. So learning to deal with those, is just as valid, if easier to learn to deal with while practicing. Not everyone will commit completely on a given strike, nor will their upper and lower (or right and left) portions of their bodies always coordinate or cooperate with their desire to punch you in the mouth.

    And amy ? if you'd like to get together and work through why your punches fall short...*...teasing smirk..* I'm sure I could help you out with your bows.

    *...runs away, far and fast...bobbing and eaving erratically so as to avoid all but the most skillfully thrown shoes...* :O
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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Greetings!

    First, what is "Numberts"? I'm a physicist, and in my classical mechanics class when I was undergraduate we played with the physics of billiards.

    Also, I just got out of an SL4 Kenpo 2 day intensive with Doc Chapel.

    And thirdly, if you duplicate the initial conditions you will get the same result. If you change them by little, you will get little variation.

    Systems that require the tools of chaos theory are the ones in which a very small change in initial conditions will cause huge change, as to become almost impossible to predict the behavior.

    Thus the physics used for self defense applications is classical.

    Enjoy!

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    A person will never be able exactly duplicate a shot in pool, and they will never be able to exactly duplicate a strike or sequence of strikes on another person.

    Everytime you strike the cue ball you are changing the tip of the cue, and leaving chalk residue on the ball and table, this changes the dynamic every time. The same thing happens when one perosn is working against another person, there are always variables that change things from one time to the next. The biggest variable is the human factor. As much as we would like to be able to duplicate things over and over it is not possible for people. Experiments with machines would be great, and I can completely somethings being the same time and time again, but not when human beings are involved.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    push hands, sticky hands, soft hands, sparring... these are the ways to develop the physical sensitivity and mental clarity to read and respond within the framework of your environment and target availabilities.
    "Rust Never Sleeps" - N.Young.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    And amy ? if you'd like to get together and work through why your punches fall short...*...teasing smirk..* I'm sure I could help you out with your bows.

    *...runs away, far and fast...bobbing and eaving erratically so as to avoid all but the most skillfully thrown shoes...* :O
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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    I see I didn't get here fast enough to point out that Juan, aka Professormental, has a degree in Physics. LOL. Long time no see Juan! Glad you're back and posting!!! You'll have to tell us more about your workout with Doc!!

    A lot of excellent points and great thread Rob!! I personally like thedan's take on it..."Hit 'em with the pool cue!" ROFL. classic.

    No one has really addressed the angles necessary to be proficient in pool. A knowledge of angles and how they affect one's surroundings is also important in becoming proficient in Kenpo. Look at all the "angles" listed in the Encyclopedia of Kenpo!!! Angle of Execution, Angle of Disturbance, Angle of Entry, etc, etc, etc.... Geometry is one aspect that makes Kenpo a "Martial Science"....as well as Physics.
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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    This is another of those topics I started that I just love. Hope you enjoy it to and can contribute to the discussion
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    In thinking about this analogy, I realize that kenpo people train quite differently than many other traditional karate styles. Frequently, other styles talk about the one point kill shot or the finishing shot. I don't think our ways and theirs are mutually exclusive. It would be good to locate the precise one point kill within the overkill sequence and patterns of kenpo.

    Kenpo Gary
    "The heart of the Kenpo System has always been practical-effective- Self Defense Techniques." Al Tracy

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    The one hit one kill idea is great, but often it is not practical. Traditional Karate often has its practioners do a striking over and over against a stationary target to build power, focus, depth of penetration etc... But the chances of actually getting that perfect shot in against a moving, reacting, non compliant opponents is a whole different story.

    The logic that the American Kenpo system, the IKCA system, the Tracy's system, SL4 are build upon takes into factor that it is no longer two samurai honor bound squaring off in the street, and that it is usually some street thug looking for cash to score his next high that is attacking you. This attacker has little or no value for any life other than its own, and that is a scary fact to face.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Kenpo and the Game of Pool

    I figured the analagy was hitting the balls.
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