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Thread: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

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    Default Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    What do you all think about the trend of posting video clips of your art?

    It seems like a lot of people like to post video clips of themselves doing a form, or a tech application, or something. On one hand, it's interesting to see what others are doing and I can appreciate that. On the other hand, I sometimes wonder if it cheapens the art somehow.

    I mean, I spend hours and days and weeks and years trying to develop skill in what I have been taught. It's something that is very close and personal and dear and valuable to me and I wonder if it makes sense to just put it out there for everyone to casually gawk at. For myself, I train as a part of my life. I don't train to impress others or to become a sideshow. I practice and perform and execute my art the best that I can. This means that I am better than some others, and not so good as many others. But regardless of how I stack up to anyone else, I am simply what I am and no amount of criticism, ridicule, nor encouragement will change that. The only thing that will is continued training; and a video is simply a captured moment that does not reflect this progression, and often it does not capture your absolute best effort either.

    It opens you up to attacks by those who think they see fault in what you are doing. It also opens you to feedback by those who think they can help you improve. But the truth is, the true essence of what you are doing cannot be caught on video. Those who might criticize can't really see and judge the perceived errors from the viewpoint of the camera. And those who might offer tips and pointers might be completely wrong in their assessment of what would make for an improvement.

    I think the arts should be shared, but I guess maybe I think the sharing should be kept on a face-to-face level. Posting videos for the world to gobble up is something I've just been very wary of. I applaud the courage of those who have posted videos of themselves. I've just been thinking about this a bit and seeing how easily a posted video becomes the target of ridicule that may not really be justified sort of reinforces my misgivings.

    maybe this is part of the curse of technology. I would just suggest that everyone should be a bit cautious and thoughtful before posting a video clip of themselves.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Good Post! Makes you think.

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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    And what is to stop another from lifting the video to post on youtube? I've known of some martial artists that didn't know until later that videos of them were put "out there" by someone else.

    **sigh**
    Studying martial arts is for life, not for the color of the belt.

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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    I have no problems with stuff that I have posted being online. It has allowed me to be booked for seminars and to also get my point across. It can be a double edged sword at times. But as we put in the rules here do not criticize someone if you are not brave enough to post your own clips.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    I like to post my stuff. I do get valuable feedback from people. Sometimes it's something small and sometimes not.

    And I've been told that my clips have helped other people.

    I have found that watching other people's clips helps me. I get ideas for how to move or ways to do things that I didn't have before.

    There will always be negative people. I posted my clips on youtube and, of course, Doc went on and said something rude and negative, but that's just one person. Other people are validating and/or make constructive comments that I have found very helpful.

    I think the people that have nothing positive to say are going to be like that whether they have clips to look at or not.

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    Unhappy Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    F. Crane...

    Au contraire. I think it's great to be able to see what other folk are doing, whom I may never get the opportunity to see face-to-face, due to geographical or financial restrictions. Personally...I'm stranded up in the top left corner of the United states, and have met some interesting folk from Florida. I'm not independantly wealthy and the reality is...I'm not likely to be able to jump the next flight to sunny Florida to show my contemporary my form. Granted, the experience of viewing a video, shot from a cold, single perspective camera will never do the job communicating your art, that you can accomplish face to face...it's not supposed to. I don't fool myself into believe for a moment that I know all there is to know about someone, based upon a brief 60 second clip, nor do I think I can steal and replicate their years of training in that 60 peek. However, it is an opportunity to share interpretations of simular kata or view a fovorite addition to a technique. If you are you saying the sum total of your experience can be stolen in that brief glance, on what usually amounts to a 3x4 inch screen then I might be concerned, too. I say this, not as an attack, my friend, but in an effort to try to understand your fears. I, too have been training for a very long time. My 'journey' too, has been very personal, as I suspect each of ours has been. I don't mind sharing, bits and pieces of that journey with others, as I have the sincere hope that either my words, or my images just might make even the smallest difference to someone somewhere. If I can shave off even a step, along the path, to make someone elses journey better, or even more interesting, then is that a bad thing? Even if it's by setting a shining example of how NOT to do something. You also say, " I am simply what I am and no amount of criticism, ridicule, nor encouragement will change that." Really ? Then perhaps you are at the end of your path already? Your cup is already full? I am really kind of sad to think that's what you meant and hope I have misinterpreted your words. I will continue to post both my words and my actions, as long as I am welcome. I am proud of my own path, and interested in others. I eagerly antisipate, other perspectives and challenges. I'm comfortable enough with my knowledge, that I am not afraid to support my rationale for doing what I do. Yet also openminded enough to listen to reason and experience and other points of view, in an effort to take the next step. I honestly and sincerely welcome and encourage debate, (isn't this what this forum is all about?), whether it be on my own techniques and ideas...or yours.
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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    F. Crane...

    Au contraire...

    You also say, " I am simply what I am and no amount of criticism, ridicule, nor encouragement will change that." Really ? Then perhaps you are at the end of your path already? Your cup is already full? I am really kind of sad to think that's what you meant and hope I have misinterpreted your words.
    No, that's not what I meant. I thought my next sentence covered my meaning but maybe I didn't communicate my thought clearly. What I meant was that I question the value of feedback coming from people who have only watched a short video clip on the internet. These people, while well-meaning (or mean sprited, as the case may be) don't know the depth of what my training may be, and they are only seeing that one slice of a moment and making a judgement based on that. They don't know me or my abilities well enough to make a judgement one way or the other, based on that clip alone, or even a number of clips. For example, maybe my stances are rock solid, but in that particular clip I fumbled it a bit and I get a bunch of negative feedback telling me my stances are no good. So whether they offer criticism (constructive or mean spirited), I just don't think it can be given much weight one way or the other because they are commenting on something that they don't know was irregular.

    Some people might watch a clip and say "Hey, that was great!", and then someone else watches it and says "Hey, that was terrible! your stances were junk and you had no focus or power" etc. But I don't even really know these people and who's comments would I trust or disregard? Maybe the guy who says its great really knows what he is talking about, or not. Same with the guy who says it sucks. But I don't really know that over the internet. So I can't really utilize the comments in any effective or meaningful way.

    Another example, perhaps the exercise that was filmed was focusing on a specific idea, that might make a viewer who didn't know the background and purpose of the excercise, think that they were witnessing something done poorly. It can be taken out of context and misinterpreted, and if the poster isn't available to clarify that (like if the video gets lifted by someone and posted on Youtube as a joke and for ridicule), then it is misunderstood and nobody realizes it.

    So I don't claim my cup is full. I just say that whatever feedback I may get probably will have little affect on my growth. My continued training, and studying with my instructors is what will affect my growth because at that level, face to face, is where the feedback and instruction is really meaningful.

    So that aside, I imagine most people realize all this and they don't post video clips with the deliberate idea that they will get real instruction thru feedback from random people who happen to watch it. Maybe it's just my weird hangup, but I guess i just don't like to put my stuff out there for just anybody to see. It's private enough for me that I am only willing to show any of it to people who I know well, and trust. I guess I've never liked to be the center of attention, and always tried to fly under the radar. Just how I do things. I kind of feel like if I am just posting it out there for anybody, then I am sort of handing it out like candy or something. I know, probably most people don't see it that way, this is probably just my own hangup, but it's kind of how I feel so I have always been reluctant to post any video. I'm not sure if I'm getting my thoughts across clearly, but I'm giving it my best.

    You make some other interesting points, like maybe your own example can be a help to someone else, even if it is an example of what NOT to do. I can appreciate that attitude and the sense of humor needed to go along with it. I certainly appreciate seeing what others do, I like to see the variations and similarities and stuff. Sometimes I see things that I think are pretty lousy, and sometimes I see things that I think are pretty good, and other times I'm not sure what to make of what I see. But it is always interesting, regardless. And like I said, I applaud the bravery of anyone willing to post their own videos. It takes guts and sometimes a pretty thick skin. I guess it's when I see someone's video being used as fodder for a bunch of jokes and ridicule or spite (not necessarily here, but other places on the Net), I sometimes wonder why people post some of these videos, and why other people feel the need to cut others down to make themselves feel bigger. So I guess I feel some measure of caution and thought should go into the decision to post a video.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Wow, does anyone know why my reponse to DangerRuss got bumped into the #1 post position in the thread? weird!

    edit: and I see this post is now #2. What's up?
    Michael


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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    As Bob mentioned in the Site news there is a problem with the server which is being corrected.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    I understand your concern Michael.

    As I watch videos, I see things that from my training perspective are very poor kenpo. They make me want to scream. But, I also know how hard everyone who posts here, works on their material. Nobody wants to perform their martial art poorly.

    I feel like a bit of a snob, because of the work I do with my Grand Roast Duck - Huk Planas. I am sure some of the other Grand Roast Duck's out there also contribute great information to their students. Am I really in a place to judge others material?

    Certainly, I am not qualified to discuss 'Tang Soo Do' or 'Kung Fu' ... but I like to think that I have a pretty good understanding of American Kenpo.

    When I watch videos ... I sometimes see a practitioner whom I feel does not know the system I am studying - even though they believe they do. And I am sure when they look at me, they wonder 'why the hell would he do that, like that?'.

    I'm not sure it elevates our studies.

    And as a post script - when looking at video, we can certainly discern the difference between an accomplished practitioner and an apprentice practitioner. For instance - I think some of the two-man set videos that floated around a while back .... most of us don't work this set regularly. It's one of the things we 'play' at, as compared to Form 4. Which I think all of us are a bit more serious about. I certainly can recognize the difference between those two types of clips.

    Don't know if this helps or not .... but, go ahead, take a look at my staff set.... watch me step in the hole in my backyard.

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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    I say post away if that's what you want and if not, don't.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Good points you make there. Much truth in it also. Video allows us to share and others with ill intentions to bash it.

    Some say video does not lie, in fact some distance learning programs use it as a tool to literally correct any and every mistake even reviewing it in slow motion, backwards and over and over.

    Certainly much of that would be missed in an in person test. The eye cant possibly catch every single movement from every single person.

    Good and bad to video. One thing for sure I like about it, is to use it as a self improvement tool.

    Thanks for the post.
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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post

    But the truth is, the true essence of what you are doing cannot be caught on video.

    I think the arts should be shared, but I guess maybe I think the sharing should be kept on a face-to-face level. Posting videos for the world to gobble up is something I've just been very wary of. I applaud the courage of those who have posted videos of themselves.
    You are 100% accurate in stating that one cannot truly capture the essence and quality of skill of someone based on videos alone. But we live in a knowledge explosion era and, therefore, if people want to put themselves out there - why not? I love seeing how differently people move doing the exact same form, and it helps me strive for things to do better or to avoid.
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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    A simple arguement in favor of posting clips online is Larry Tatum's Tip Of The Week.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    What a tough subject! Personnally, I think it's up to the moderator to determine if the person is getting constructive comments and criticism or just plain bashing. Things like locking threads, temporary bans on users, etc can be used for those that insist on putting people down that are just trying to share information.

    Should we be posting videos? IMO we should be sharing as much info as possible to bridge the gaps. Maybe you're a black belt teaching your own classes or your a yellow belt that isn't able to get the same level of expertise others may have access to, we should be sharing information to make Kenpo better.

    The people that just slam others have no business being here and they need to know that. "You're kata sucks!" is not contructive no matter how you put it. Viewers should keep in mind that there is a person being that keyboard and not just pixels on a screen.

    Also, the poster should review the video before posting and ask themselves if they really want to open themselves up to be criticized for that particular clip.
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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Thanks for all the replies, everyone. I appreciate the feedback and thoughts.

    I am the first to admit, I like to see video clips. I enjoy seeing what others are doing. I have just seen it be subjected to abuse and that makes me a little sad I guess, when I see that.

    I'm not trying to tell anybody that they shouldn't post. That is obviously a personal choice. I just wanted to bring the issue to the front, and maybe get people to be a little bit thoughtful about it, is all. Be careful about what you post, make sure you want the world to see it, make sure you are comfortable with the possibility that it might be abused somehow, and it represents you in a way that you are comfortable with. And when we see someone else's videos I think it is appropriate to express honest thoughts about it even if they are negative, but it should be done with respect and shouldn't just be raw ridicule. Thanks for entertaining the idea.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Just to note there has not been any sniping in the members in motion area to date and the only time we have had any negative comments is when is was in reply to a 3rd party site.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    Just to note there has not been any sniping in the members in motion area to date and the only time we have had any negative comments is when is was in reply to a 3rd party site.
    That's cause we've got great mods and respectful people in general on this forum for the most part.
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    Default Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    Quote Originally Posted by Arizona Angel View Post
    That's cause we've got great mods and respectful people in general on this forum for the most part.
    Agreed

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    Smile Re: Should We Be Posting Video Clips...?

    FlyingCrane...

    Thank you for clarifying your position.

    I appologize for sounding so rough, as I do understand your reservations. I hope you can appreciate, my diatribes stem from a passion for the artform we all practice. The thing to always keep in perspective is that all art is interpretive and subjective. In the end, we all practice something that falls under the collective label Martial Art. As artists, sometimes we need to take risks, subject ourselves to criticism, whether deserved or not. Otherwise, the art aspect withers and suffers. If I carry this analology further, what if great painters, sculptors or writers were discouraged from sharing their works with the public, who is largely undeserving and underappreciative? This stifles creativity and does nothing to further the developement of the art. Look at the criticism Mr Parker or Bruce Lee endured, from skeptics and non-believers. Thankfully, these guys took risks, exposed the public to what they were doing, which is what probably lead all of us to study and practice Kenpo. I don't begin to suggest, you publish your greatest secrets for mass consumption. (That's poor marketing ) However, borrowing a vastly over-used catch phrase, it does allow us to demonstrate that we do..."Walk the walk, as well as talk the talk". If only a single person, sees somethng of value in anything I say, or demonstrate, that somehow inspires them to try something different, or seek out different instruction or knowledge, or even to question their own teachings and either find greater confidence in their own method, or branch out to try something new, then I feel that I have helped in some minimal way to further the art of kenpo. I'm no better than anyone here. I have achieved whatever minimal level of competence comes with having dedicated 35+ years of my life to doin' the Kenpo Boogie. However, to someone who has 6 months, or 1 year of training, then there might be some level of inspiration sparked by watching what due dilligence, practice and study of even the most minimally skilled...(such as myself) might accomplish. So I merely seek to be the Devil's advocate, when you caution others in sharing knowledge. Remember, a picture is said to be worth a thousand words, so how much value might be attached to the thousands of still images, contained in 60 seconds of video?

    That being said, I have had experience at other less friendly sites. I have remained a rather quiet observer (I know, most of you probably find this difficult to swallow...but shhhhhh...)...for some time and have contributed very little to discussions of any nature at other sites, as it was appearent, that if your opinion varied one iota, from the masses, you were likely to be tarred and feathered without a due process. This venue seems to be by and large populated by more freethinking, open-minded and genuinely friendly sorts and as such, I am glad to contribute whatever I may.
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