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Thread: Pressure Points

  1. #21
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Bob Hubbard View Post
    With any information posted to the web, there is the risk someone will read it then try it. Unfortunately, we cannot control the stupidity of others who will play with dangerous ideas without proper training and/or supervision.

    All we can do is post clear warnings, and hope that they do the smart thing.
    Bob, seriously. That is not all you can do. "All you can " would be to not post it. That would be the most effective way to make sure it is not misused. I will get off of this soapbox now before I start something but I had to put in 2 cents.

  2. #22
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Carol Kaur View Post
    Alternatively, it could be made available to supporting members only.
    That is a great suggestion.

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by cdhall View Post
    Bob, seriously. That is not all you can do. "All you can " would be to not post it. That would be the most effective way to make sure it is not misused. I will get off of this soapbox now before I start something but I had to put in 2 cents.

    The material is so readily available on the web that anyone wanting to serious look for it could do so in less than a minute. We have had several discussions about pressure points on the site, and they have been very good, but a lot of readers were lost because they did not have a reference of what was what. This way our members can stay on here to find out what they are looking for with out having to do a search elsewhere.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by cdhall View Post
    That is a great suggestion.
    I personally like the idea of all the info in the reference library to be a supporting member feature.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

  5. #25
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    The material is so readily available on the web that anyone wanting to serious look for it could do so in less than a minute. We have had several discussions about pressure points on the site, and they have been very good, but a lot of readers were lost because they did not have a reference of what was what. This way our members can stay on here to find out what they are looking for with out having to do a search elsewhere.

    I was going to say this earlier but I didn't want to be extra confusing. I agree with you here. I just think it is illogical to say "I'll do something that might have bad consequences but I'll trust on everyones better judgement to not capitalize on my action." If that make sense.

    But I would be lost in a pressure point discussion and I would like to have the material myself. How's that for being conflicted?

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    I think that even with having the material available one might find themselves lost.......I say this even after studying this in a TCM class at shiatsu school.
    It's a complex subject that charts and explanation of points wont really help you understand.

    Points on the meridians are generally used in combination, almost like a prescription, and like drugs, using the wrong ones can make you very ill.

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz View Post
    Points on the meridians are generally used in combination, almost like a prescription, and like drugs, using the wrong ones can make you very ill.
    Question: could you, from studying the charts and tables, target these to do dammage?

    Dan C
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    you could learn where the targets are, and yes, some of them do hurt when you give them a good whack.
    Am I worried about someone doing something potentially lethal?
    No.....Practicing martial arts is potentially lethal, but, hitting the wrong combo unbeknownst to you might be a recipe for chronic headaches or other lingering pain.
    Anyone can do damage in the short term.......it's what you do that causes lingering damage that the receiver cant seem to fix.

    As far as the beneficial combinations, you can find them in books, the tough part is recognizing the symptoms.......doing this from a western point of view isn't really how it's done either.
    i.e. how does one distinguish an "excess of yin" as opposed to "consumption of yang", both conditions have yang at lower levels than yin but for different reasons.
    There are all kinds of strange and wonderful descriptors used in TCM for understanding problems as they present themselves from a TCM point of view.
    My studies of TCM theory are pretty basic, but it's a lot more than what most martial arts teachers out there are letting on they know.
    I know enough to go slightly outside my realm of understanding from a shiatsu standpoint when treating someone to perhaps try a different approach. I will only try out something different though after researching the symptoms in a textbook that would then suggest a "prescription" or plan of attack. Sometimes the points you use seem entirely unrelated to the problem from a western perspective but completely normal for TCM.

    I think one of the great things about learning Namikoshi method (the original) shiatsu, is that it is solidly based in western anatomy, physiology, pathology, etc. but it also has the mindset of treating the body holistically and doesnt seem to completely discount TCM, but recognises it as a different method.

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz View Post
    you could learn where the targets are, and yes, some of them do hurt when you give them a good whack.
    Am I worried about someone doing something potentially lethal?
    No.....Practicing martial arts is potentially lethal, but, hitting the wrong combo unbeknownst to you might be a recipe for chronic headaches or other lingering pain.
    I was thinking more along the lines of a major "flinch," or temporarily disorienting or upseting his equilibrium, something like that. A major hurt would be good, but killing? Long term headaches? Maybe a couple of people I know, but not really.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    I was thinking more along the lines of a major "flinch," or temporarily disorienting or upseting his equilibrium, something like that. A major hurt would be good, but killing? Long term headaches? Maybe a couple of people I know, but not really.

    Dan C
    Dan, I think for those purposes, a better way would be to learn where the positions of sensory and motor nerves lie near the "surface" or cross over "exposed" areas of bones(I put those words in quotes because I dont want people to think i mean it literally).
    A good shot to the carotid sinus can knock someone out. A shot to the brachial plexus can disorient. A penetrating shot to the radial or ulnar nerve can loosen someone's grip on your throat long enough to get their hand off of you.
    These are some realistic uses of "pressure points" that don't need a complex understanding of their related intricacies.

  11. #31
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Although misuse of Pressure points can certainly lead to injury....so can the mis-use of forks. *...points to the series of holes in my own forhead...* My experience is, that without having someone at hand to actually show you, both the location and the proper method of activation, most laymen cannot properly activate these 'hot buttons'. I include this training in my curriculum, as I feel that most of our techniques have sufferred from the "Telephone Game" watering down over time. (If you're unfamiliar with the Telephone Game, it's what you did in kindegarten where you sat in a circle and whispered a secret to the spitball-chewing kid next to you, and by the time the secret came full-circle...it had absolutely nothing in commen with the original story) I think that many of our techniques have inadvertantly suffered the same fate. If not, then the effectiveness of the techniques certaily benefit from knowledge of these points and how to attack them. That said... Commen sense, should accompany any practice of martial arts techniques, just as it should accompany usage of anything you plug into an electrical outlet. ("Kids if I told you once, I've told you a thousand times, DON'T play with the radio in the bathtub!")

  12. #32
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    Although misuse of Pressure points can certainly lead to injury....so can the mis-use of forks. *
    I have to disagree.

    Forks are meant to transport food to your mouth. If you restrict the use of your fork to this purpose then you should not be in danger.

    Pressure points however are presented as "targets" and if you restrict the use of your pressure point knowledge to using them as targets then there is a good possibility that you will be in danger.

    A friend of mine told me the following story.

    He had been in martial arts for some time and finally got some knowledge of pressure points so he wanted to test them out. He had 2 students or training buddies at the time. One day he worked on them with his 2 buddies. He targeted every pressure point on both sides of their bodies for a few hours until they thought they had them all down.

    The guys that took all the hits to the pressure point areas were both sick for days afterward. As I recall, the one guy had a headache for 3 days. The other guy was bedridden for 1 week with multiple symptoms and I think my friend said they were all worried that he might die or something. It was very scary for them all.

    My friend told me the above story when he introduced some pressure point targets in a Kenpo seminar. He also said:

    1. Never work pressure point targets for more than 15 minutes a day (which I think Dillman also says);

    2. Never work pressure point targets on both sides of the body on the same day (which Dillman might also say. I've only seen one of Mr. Dillman's books once).

    So there is a good example of how a novice can do some damage by working with pressure points as targets. Unlike the fork analogy, you don't have to change the purpose of the pressure point to cause a problem. Unless of course part of the problem is that pressure points aren't targets in the first place. If that is the case, then they shouldn't be discussed as targets when speaking to a beginner.

    I know almost nothing about pressure points, meridians, nerve strikes... but I may like to investigate this later. The friend I mention above has now studied probably 3 different arts and has a good working knowledge of how to target pressure points/nerve strikes in combat. I hope I'm not confusing pressure points and nerve targets. Anyway, that is my 2 cents. I've also had a similar story related to me by at least one other person.

    I would reccomend extreme caution and close supervision with an expert before playing with this stuff. OK. Now that is my 2 cents.

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by cdhall View Post
    I have to disagree.

    Forks are meant to transport food to your mouth. If you restrict the use of your fork to this purpose then you should not be in danger.
    I stabbed myself in the gums one time, I'm not sure that coutns as dangerous but it was painful and funny.

    Quote Originally Posted by cdhall View Post
    1. Never work pressure point targets for more than 15 minutes a day (which I think Dillman also says);

    2. Never work pressure point targets on both sides of the body on the same day (which Dillman might also say. I've only seen one of Mr. Dillman's books once).
    We have monthly Kyusho classes that go 3 hours each. We regularly work both sides of the body. We don't have anything like the problems your friend described. One anecdote is inconclusive, we have been having these calsses for a couple of years now.

    however we do practice what we call "revivals", it is the first level of the KI course, clearing blockages and such. We also end the classes with massage and meditation. So maybe we are just "cleaning up" after ourselves


    Quote Originally Posted by cdhall View Post
    I would reccomend extreme caution and close supervision with an expert before playing with this stuff. OK. Now that is my 2 cents.
    I fully agree. it is easy to find spots where it hurts more to hit. But that has nothing to do with real Kyusho or pressure point work.

  14. #34
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    I stabbed myself in the gums one time, I'm not sure that coutns as dangerous but it was painful and funny.
    No. I think that counts as "should not be in danger."



    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    We have monthly Kyusho classes that go 3 hours each. We regularly work both sides of the body. We don't have anything like the problems your friend described. One anecdote is inconclusive, we have been having these calsses for a couple of years now.

    however we do practice what we call "revivals", it is the first level of the KI course, clearing blockages and such. We also end the classes with massage and meditation. So maybe we are just "cleaning up" after ourselves
    Yes, I think you are "cleaning up" after yourselves. My friend didn't know any of the revivals at that time so he was creating traffic jams and not clearing them out. I have actually had 2 people tell me similar stories. And I think that Dillman book I saw said the same thing about not working too many points and mentioned something about restoring/reviving the areas after working on them.

    I have also been to one pressure point class and as I recall we were taught to revive the areas we worked on. I also used to go to camps where we had a very good person teach a massage and a Tai Chi class and I think it was in his massage class that he had us doing things to restore Chi flow. This class was after we'd been working out about 8hrs that day on regular Kenpo stuff including sparring.


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    I fully agree. it is easy to find spots where it hurts more to hit. But that has nothing to do with real Kyusho or pressure point work.

    I think we agree on pretty much everything.


    Man. I'm going to have to ask for .pdf files to be made of threads. I have put a lot of stuff on here in the last 2 days that isn't even in my notebook!

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    A Kenpo brother of ours Bill Parson wrote some good stuff from his Hapkido days on some similar stuff.

    Check it out.

    http://www.trianglekenpo.com/pressure_points_101.pdf

    Enjoy
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  16. #36
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by florida_kenpo View Post
    A Kenpo brother of ours Bill Parson wrote some good stuff from his Hapkido days on some similar stuff.

    Check it out.

    http://www.trianglekenpo.com/pressure_points_101.pdf

    Enjoy
    Awesome! A great many thanks to you for that post!

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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    He has some other good stuff under Articles there.

    Bill is a great guy.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  18. #38
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Quote Originally Posted by cdhall View Post
    I have to disagree.

    Forks are meant to transport food to your mouth. If you restrict the use of your fork to this purpose then you should not be in danger.
    Aha! I knew they had some purpose, so that's why they are always arrayed next to my plate at the supper table. *..nods sagely...*


    Quote Originally Posted by cdhall View Post
    My friend told me the above story when he introduced some pressure point targets in a Kenpo seminar. He also said:

    1. Never work pressure point targets for more than 15 minutes a day (which I think Dillman also says);

    2. Never work pressure point targets on both sides of the body on the same day (which Dillman might also say. I've only seen one of Mr. Dillman's books once).
    Well, while there is some validity to this statement, it's not entirely correct. There are SOME pressure points that should not be stimulated repeatedly for a prolonged period of time. (However unless you're truly masochistic to begin with, you aren't gonna let someone poke at THOSE pressure points that many times inna row!) As to the don't work both sides in the same day? My teacher regularly poked, prodded, rubbed and otherwise activated nerve centers throughout the body, to all of us, on a daily basis. While there were certainly some, points which required, "unblocking" afterwards to dissapate the effect, or lesson the aftermath, that certainly wasn't so for all points. I cannot say that anyone in our class ever suffered negative longterm affects, specifically from working bi-laterally. However, if we are talking 15 minutes of continuous, nonstop poking and prodding of pressure points...(YIKES!) then all bets are off. I suspect you'd feel like you'd been run through a tenderizer or run over by a rototiller.

    One of my students is an accomplished accupuncturist, (so being Devil's Advocate) I will question him in regard to this line as well. (In the interest of science and witchcraft)

    An interesting side note, one of my teachers made for me, a hooded sweatshirt, bearing untold numbers of nerve centers, pressure points, etc, color coded for the type of target, manner of most effective activation and best times to strike. This sweatshirt somehow got wedged behind a drawer in the school for almost 2 decades and was recently found. (It looks very grunge/punk by the way) Although my body has undergone some change in the pst twenty years, all of the target areas, (much to my dismay) seem to remain spot-on, as my girlfriend tested out as many as she could reach, when she discerned what it was I was wearing. (I knew I should never have introduced her to my teacher)



    I know almost nothing about pressure points, meridians, nerve strikes... but I may like to investigate this later. The friend I mention above has now studied probably 3 different arts and has a good working knowledge of how to target pressure points/nerve strikes in combat. I hope I'm not confusing pressure points and nerve targets. Anyway, that is my 2 cents. I've also had a similar story related to me by at least one other person.

    I would reccomend extreme caution and close supervision with an expert before playing with this stuff. OK. Now that is my 2 cents.
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    Red face Re: Pressure Points

    Hmmm....note to self: Self, remember to make liberal use of the PREVIEW POST key before pressing Post.

    *..slaps own wrist and slinks back to my corner...*
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    Default Re: Pressure Points

    Hmmm ... well George Dillman also knocks people out through bed sheets from 10' away.

    Me ... I like to feel what I am hitting.

    "When pure knuckles meets pure flesh thats pure karate no matter what style or system is it". SGM Parker.
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