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Thread: "Club" Techniques

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    Default "Club" Techniques

    This is something that's been in the back of my mind for some time and the recent post about "Obstructing the Storm" and seeing footage on the news of a recent road rage incedent where a baseball bat was used has brought it to the forefront.

    Maybe it's just me, but I notice a lot of club attacks that we defend against are one-handed. I believe that if you were to be attacked in this manner it would be more likely that the attacker would be using both hands to wield the club. Reason being, it's likely to be either a baseball bat or an ax handle. In my mind, this puts a completely different spin on how one would go about defending the attack.

    I would love to hear everyones take on this and how they would address these type of attacks.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    We've worked this scenario, and the street variety attacks with two hands on the club are easier to deal with than the one hand attacks. He has no "live" hand to deal with as both are on the weapon, and the swing is typically more commited.

    We found that getting inside the arc of the swing, inside the power arc, was most effective. I target my blocks to take advantage of the momentum an weight of the club to either deflect and open him up or control him, or to do seriouse dammage.

    One example, for a "baseball bat" swing, start with Five Swords to the outside. You'll have to drive in hard to cover some extra distance, but heck fire, you've got all day to get there! Target the outward block to his elbow and the inward block to his shoulder joint. You'll get his attention! Just let it flow from there.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    I agree that moving into the attacker is very important. The force of the strike is most dangerous at the apex of the arc, so by moving into the attacker you risk less injury and increase your chances of dealing with them.

    What about an overhead, chopping motion? I don't think I'd try a universal block but would rather step off line or up the circle prior to following up. You?

    (I can't believe nobody else has an opinion on this subject)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    What about an overhead, chopping motion? I don't think I'd try a universal block but would rather step off line or up the circle prior to following up. You?
    (I can't believe nobody else has an opinion on this subject)
    They probably can't believe us: "those two! They have an opinion about everything!"

    I generally prefer to work the FMA open triangle against weapons attacks- especially the longer range attack of a club. So I guess that means to the side. Most overhead attacks have some kind of diagonal component to them. I prefer to get to the high side of the swing and assist his momentum on through to the other side and/or pull the shoulder down, opening the head and neck. Was it Dr.Dave (sorry if I got it wrong) that said "Control the weapon, destroy the computer"? Simple and direct.

    I don't see steping up the circle as that useful against a club. Even if it is effective in getting you to a temporary zone of sanctuary, or out of the major part of the power arc, you'll likely end up sparing the weapon. With weapons I try to have a mindset of "attack the attack," nothing fancy and just "get 'er done."

    The first swing, where he thinks the weapon gives him all the advantage and when he wants to take you out quick, is probably where he is most vulnerable. Deal with the attack, but not the attacker, and you've put him on his guard. His next attack may not be as (over)committed.

    Then there is allways the possibility of his friends, and the legal system, to consider. Slimeballs will always want all the odds in their favor. If he has, or might have, friends in the area, you obviously need to drop him quick and get your backside out of there. The law is a given in some areas- it ishis ally. If you as a trained "fighter" should be so rude as to defend your life a little too vigorously after stoping the initial attack, you go to jail and leave your loved ones to worry about his revenge. He doesn't care about his record, and he knows you are not going after his family. And he won't be in long, if at all, because he is so underprivilaged he had to attack you- and admit it, you oppressed him by being a decent human being in the first place.

    See, they were right! I have opinions about everything!

    Dan C

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    This is something that bothered me after getting a taste of Doce Paras Eskrima. All the blocks I learned used both hands (or stick and the other hand). I've basically adapted the same concept to Kenpo SD techs. Though to be perfectly fair after what little I studied of Eskrima I've decided that more than a few of the SD techs are definately not what you want to do if the person has had any sort of training.

    Regardless if it's a rattan stick, baseball bat or a handyman jack.... I'm gonna be using both hands to stop it.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay View Post
    Regardless if it's a rattan stick, baseball bat or a handyman jack.... I'm gonna be using both hands to stop it.
    Depends. I've used the opening of Calming the Storm in full contact stick fighting. And the typical two handed block in the FMA's is a deflection followed by a live hand control, not a double handed block. I don't know about Doce Pares, but I've worked with a few other FMA stylists and this has been consistent, along with their primarily working the female triangle.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    we've worked with this idea some...

    one of the options we came up with was, if you're close enough at the outset of the fight, to step in and jam his swing as he's drawing back/winding up. Then just elbow or palm-heel the crap out of him. The other method that worked pretty well was to use a Returning Storm type of idea, evade the first one, then jam him before he can swing again.

    Or...there's always my typical response when asked how to deal with a weapon attack...SHOOT HIM!


    edit to add: Looks like I'm an Orange Belt now....Yay for me!
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    Very true, that it's not a double handed block, I was just being lazy in my description.



    Oddly enough Returning Storm is one of the techniques that I personally would refrain from using. While the concept of jamming the assailant on a return swing has value, and I would do. The initial set up for Returning Storm leaves you exceedingly vulnerable IMO.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay View Post
    Oddly enough Returning Storm is one of the techniques that I personally would refrain from using. While the concept of jamming the assailant on a return swing has value, and I would do. The initial set up for Returning Storm leaves you exceedingly vulnerable IMO.
    I guess I didn't articulate that well enough. I didn't mean that you have to use the technique, I merely mentioned it to give people a frame of reference for what I was talking about.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpotex View Post
    I guess I didn't articulate that well enough. I didn't mean that you have to use the technique, I merely mentioned it to give people a frame of reference for what I was talking about.

    No you were clear. I just have a problem with Returning Storm. Thats all.
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay View Post
    No you were clear. I just have a problem with Returning Storm. Thats all.
    care to elaborate?

    I have an issue with this technique and some of the other club tech's (and, for that matter, some of the knife & gun techniqes) myself. In most cases, it's not so much an issue with the tech. itself but with the way I've seen many people practice them. Oftentimes, people will work the technique without without the attacker actually using a weapon. IMO, this leads to "cheating" on the part of the defender. They tend to get a little sloppy--evading far enough to avoid the attacker's arm/hand, but not far enough that they would have avoided a 2-3' club, not checking or stopping the incoming arm enough to avoid a knife, etc. This is one reason that I require the use of training weapons for any weapon technique, it keeps people "honest."
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

    Matt K.

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    2 handed attack with a baseball bat or axe handle enh? perfect time for someone with aikido or aikijutsu training to have some fun.. guess all those sword techniques arent completely useless

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    Default Re: "Club" Techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    2 handed attack with a baseball bat or axe handle enh? perfect time for someone with aikido or aikijutsu training to have some fun.. guess all those sword techniques arent completely useless
    Definately not! I can see how the principles behind defending against a sword could be applied to defending against a club attack.

    I think timing is very critical in these scenarios. The attacker has the advantage of range and you really have to close the distance quick in order to jam them regardless of the line of entry the attack takes.

    I suppose to try to even up the odds a bit you can use kicks as they are long range weapons. Maybe as the attacker rears back take out a knee.

    Anyone got any "custom" techniques outside the usual curriculum that eveyone is familiar with they'd like to share?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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