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Thread: When Kempo fails

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    Default When Kempo fails

    I was reading about what it means to be a black belt in Kempo. One person posted that just because someone is a black belt does not mean they can always defend themselves. The person said they knew of black belts, including a third degree black belt, who got into a fighting situation with a drunk who was walking out of a bar and wanted to beat up a martial arts student. The shocking part is, the untrained drunk beat up the third degree black belt. I could not believe what I was reading.

    What are the chances a black belt would lose to someone untrained? Is it all willpower? What quality does a person have which wins street fights? Clearly, the black belt devoted years of studying self defense, knew how to fight in the classroom, but could not defend himself on the street.

    The reason I like Kempo is because I always believed it would work on the street. If someone attacks me, I believe I could defend myself, I could block their punch and counter strike, and get away safely. I'm not a black belt, and I always looked at black belts as people who are experts at self defense.

    What do people think about black belts and street fighting? Should Kempo be enough to win? What other qualities are important.

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Conditioning and training are the key.

    Ask yourself this question. Did Mike Tyson ever get hit in a fight? How about Ali? Chuck Lidell? The answer is yes and many times. Was the drunk really untrained? Maybe a former athelete? Ex military? Who knows I doubt anyone asked him.

    A certain skill level in the arts does not make us Pai Mei from Kill Bill (even though I wish it did). In a fight you can and probably will get hit, in a knife fight you probably will get cut.

    Facts of life a black belt is not a bullet proof vest. Someones signature here states a black belt only covers 2" of your butt the rest is up to you. Very true.

    Train to better yourself that is the original aim of Karate.

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    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    A "black-belt" does not garauntee you anthing, except maybe that your pants won't fall down.

    If you train hard and diligently then you can shift the odds in your favor and increase your chances of survival, but there are no garauntees in life.... about anything.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Kempo91 View Post
    I was reading about what it means to be a black belt in Kempo. One person posted that just because someone is a black belt does not mean they can always defend themselves. The person said they knew of black belts, including a third degree black belt, who got into a fighting situation with a drunk who was walking out of a bar and wanted to beat up a martial arts student. The shocking part is, the untrained drunk beat up the third degree black belt. I could not believe what I was reading.

    What are the chances a black belt would lose to someone untrained? Is it all willpower? What quality does a person have which wins street fights? Clearly, the black belt devoted years of studying self defense, knew how to fight in the classroom, but could not defend himself on the street.

    The reason I like Kempo is because I always believed it would work on the street. If someone attacks me, I believe I could defend myself, I could block their punch and counter strike, and get away safely. I'm not a black belt, and I always looked at black belts as people who are experts at self defense.

    What do people think about black belts and street fighting? Should Kempo be enough to win? What other qualities are important.
    There have been a couple godo replies so far, and you really should take them to heart. I would also like to suggest that you go to a school do some training. You have stated in previous posts that you have not trained in over 15 yrs, we all tend to wax nostalgic over things from our past, and you are much wiser now than you were as a teen, you might get a different perspective from trainng today.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Well anyone can be sucker punched it happens. Even a 10th deg black belt can have things on their mind, and walk around the corner or out of a school thinking about other things and get blindsided by a punch. I don’t think that is taking anything away from martial arts in anyway. It just means the person that threw the punch got very lucky. And that we all need to be very aware of what is going on around us.

    This happened to me not that long ago, I was walking through the food court of the Plaza of Americas in Downtown Dallas, (big hotel with a food court and an ice skating rink, next to my building) It was lunch time and pretty crowded. I had lunch in my hand and I was walking back to the escalator and my mind was a million miles away. Next thing I know I have a high heel coming at my head. I moved but my hands were full and I would have been real stuck out. But it turned out the woman that kicked at me attends our school, she started at the same time I did. I never saw her coming as she was hiding behind to of the guys she works with. Granted I have only been attending Kenpo class for about a year and a half but anyone in that situation would have been at a great disadvantage
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    It could also be that the drunk was very unorthodox in his approach and was so inebriated that he did not feel the pain or respond to the defense in a way that we are used to. I.e. many of the techniques train us to assume the opponent is also trained, or at least logical, in his/her attack. If a drunk is just flailing, anyone can be caught off guard. Or maybe the Black Belt had not trained in a while or was off his game.

    On the other end of the spectrum, I've heard Lee Wedlake tell a story in a seminar once about a student of his who was drunk. The student was followed by 2-3 guys whom he had angered. When they attacked, his muscle memory even worked while he was inebriated and he successfully defended himself. (not that he or anyone else would advise this)

    "Let the wookie win."

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    There have been a couple godo replies so far, and you really should take them to heart. I would also like to suggest that you go to a school do some training. You have stated in previous posts that you have not trained in over 15 yrs, we all tend to wax nostalgic over things from our past, and you are much wiser now than you were as a teen, you might get a different perspective from trainng today.
    If I started training again, it would be with the goal of achieving a black belt. The guys I trained with were good, and I felt like I learned a lot of Kempo in the 2 years I studied. I could not imagine my teacher getting whipped in a fight.

    If I got into a fight on the street and lost, I would think about changing schools and changing styles. I know there are some styles which are not designed for self-defense, like aikido or judo, but Kempo should be bullet proof on the street.

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by florida_kenpo View Post
    Ask yourself this question. Did Mike Tyson ever get hit in a fight? How about Ali? Chuck Lidell? The answer is yes and many times. Was the drunk really untrained? Maybe a former athelete? Ex military? Who knows I doubt anyone asked him.
    Even if the drunk was ex military, I don't think that should be enough to beat a black belt. The whole reason Kempo and Karate is good is because it can use the other persons actions against them. In theory, a little 90 pound 45 year old black belt woman should be able to defend herself against a 200 pound 21 year old male.

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Kempo91 View Post
    Even if the drunk was ex military, I don't think that should be enough to beat a black belt. The whole reason Kempo and Karate is good is because it can use the other persons actions against them. In theory, a little 90 pound 45 year old black belt woman should be able to defend herself against a 200 pound 21 year old male.
    true

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    I don't care how bad you are. If your not aware of your surroundings your chances have gone way down. I believe with the suggestions above such as training and conditioning along with good situational awareness you stand a good chance of not only surviving, but excelling. I've seen somone on here with a signature that says Kenpo is for the street and I agree. Just my 2 cents.

    Regards

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Kempo91 View Post
    If I got into a fight on the street and lost, I would think about changing schools and changing styles. I know there are some styles which are not designed for self-defense, like aikido or judo, but Kempo should be bullet proof on the street.
    You might want to rethink that. Aikido is a very serious self-defense art. I had the privilege of spend about a year in it with a very good instructor. Someone would be very sorry if they thought that he couldn't defend himself.

    Just my .02.
    "Change is not necessary...Survival is not mandatory" - W. Edward Deming

    "When I hit....I hit the whole enchilada" - Master David Leung

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Kempo91 View Post
    Even if the drunk was ex military, I don't think that should be enough to beat a black belt. The whole reason Kempo and Karate is good is because it can use the other persons actions against them. In theory, a little 90 pound 45 year old black belt woman should be able to defend herself against a 200 pound 21 year old male.
    Goes back to Never under estimate your opponent.

    This one situation has so many unknown circumstances I would not judge it based on that event alone.

    Good luck in your journey.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    If you train hard and diligently then you can shift the odds in your favor and increase your chances of survival, but there are no garauntees in life.... about anything.
    That's the bottom line on the issue, right there. And the harder and more realistic your training, the better your odds. But there are people out there who can eat pain and can just plain fight, and have enough practice at the real thing to be good at it. No martial art will guarantee victory over that kind of individual. It can increase your chances, that's all.

    I know a guy who learned his arts (TKD and Kenpo, plus a couple more) by going to bars and starting fights to test his trainingd. He was good, and tough. He got his jaw shattered walking out of a bar a couple of years ago. Win a few, lost one big one. No guarantees, like the man said.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    That's the bottom line on the issue, right there. And the harder and more realistic your training, the better your odds. But there are people out there who can eat pain and can just plain fight, and have enough practice at the real thing to be good at it. No martial art will guarantee victory over that kind of individual. It can increase your chances, that's all.

    I know a guy who learned his arts (TKD and Kenpo, plus a couple more) by going to bars and starting fights to test his trainingd. He was good, and tough. He got his jaw shattered walking out of a bar a couple of years ago. Win a few, lost one big one. No guarantees, like the man said.

    Dan C
    In addition to Kempo, what styles are best for street fighting? Are there any natural marriges to Kempo which make the style better?

    How can we stack the odds in our favor so they are overwhelming and victory is all but gaurenteed?

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Kempo91 View Post
    How can we stack the odds in our favor so they are overwhelming and victory is all but gaurenteed?
    Join the Marines.

    Dan C

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Kempo91 View Post
    How can we stack the odds in our favor so they are overwhelming and victory is all but gaurenteed?
    There is no such thing as a guaranteed victory. We are all merely human, we have good days, we have bad days, we have times when we are alert and focused and there are days when we are distracted. It only takes one great hit to incapacitate anyone, other than Homer Simpson we are all suseptible to being knocked out with that one lucky shot. If you are knocked out there is nothing you can do to defend yourself.

    But what Kenpo/Kempo does do is give you the tools to better your odds if you know it is about to happen or that you are able to continue if you are given a sucker shot. Although you consider what you learned over a two yr period as a Teen to be very good stuff, you may be idealizing things.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    All a black belt means for sure is that you have a firm understanding of the basics. Many people have the idea that being a black belt gives you magic powers and that you can fight off 10 people with ease. The black belt does not make the man/woman, the man/woman makes the blackbelt. same goes for style.
    "A warrior's ultimate act is to put down his sword"

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by EndlessRising View Post
    All a black belt means for sure is that you have a firm understanding of the basics. Many people have the idea that being a black belt gives you magic powers and that you can fight off 10 people with ease. The black belt does not make the man/woman, the man/woman makes the blackbelt. same goes for style.
    I agree 100%.
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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    Quote Originally Posted by Kempo91 View Post
    How can we stack the odds in our favor so they are overwhelming and victory is all but gaurenteed?

    Ultimately, only you can answer that.

    "The journey of 1000 miles begins with the first step." - Lao Tzu

    Train hard, train consistently, train honestly, and train often. Work your body as hard as your mind. Force yourself to concentrate, push yourself to improve. The improved discipline and clarity of martial arts training only comes with training. It doesn't matter what anyone wants to "add" to one's arsenal of skills, the training regimine must be there to begin with.

    The first time I went out on the range with my firearms instructor, I shot a bullseye. Some time after that, I met my instructor's parents at a weekly social event. My intructor was beaming at how well I was shooting right from the beginning. His folks grinned and said I was "a natural".

    Don't beleive it. It was sound, experienced instruction combined with the discipline of my Kenpo training that gave me the muscle control to able to ignore the beastly hot weather, painful sunlight, and the sticky oversized hearing protection wrapped around my head. Instead I was set to quickly grip and stabilize my firearm after each recoil, to refine anew focus on the target, forcibly slow my heart rate and breathing yet again....at a time when every nerve in my body is telling me to breath hard and take on signs of agitation.

    Personally I think the title of the thread - when Kenpo fails - is a slight misnomer. It is not "Kenpo" that fails. It the human body and the human mind that fails. And when the body and mind fails, whatever the body is trying to do falls to poor execution.

    If we make a split-second mistake with our Kenpo because we are human, we may risk a bruise. If we make a split-second mistake with weapons because we are human, we may risk a Murder conviction.

    Rule #1 in Kenpo - Establish Your Base.

    Establish your base in training first, then see where it takes you.

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    Default Re: When Kempo fails

    [quote=Takai;28724]You might want to rethink that. Aikido is a very serious self-defense art. I had the privilege of spend about a year in it with a very good instructor. Someone would be very sorry if they thought that he couldn't defend himself.


    Takai,

    I trained in Aikido for 16 years. Anyone that thinks its fluff need only try to keep up in an advanced class. So, thank you for the nod to my past art.

    As for this topic there a truths that we as martial artists need to accept. There is no self defense for a sucker punch. The sucker punch is nothing more then a weak minded persons attack because they are simply afraid to fight you straight up. Also, fighting is melee. Martial artists need to accept the fact that they will be hit and anyone who thinks that they will not be hit has already lost the fight. I say that because in a fight, which I have seen may fair share of, is like throwing two cats in a bag. Neither comes out unscathed. We are trained to defend ourselves and the lives of friends and family. From my short time in EPAK I have learned that Mr. Parker tried to give us enough ammo to so we did not run out before the other person. I believe some of the theory behind that was in a fight strikes and blocks do not always work as planned.

    As for this issue of military training I have a few things about this as well. Martial artists train to defend. Military training is to defend and suppress/kill your enemy. Dispose of your enemy before he disposes of you. There is a big difference. I have trained with many current and former Navy Seals & Army Rangers (battalion & LRRP). These people are hardened soldiers to the point were many of the militaries Special Forces are trained to act before they think. They are trained to suppress their conscious and fight till their own death. This is not how martial artists are trained. Well not at any school I've seen. I train regularly with my father who is one of these persons. 2 tours in Vietnam as a 101st Airborne Ranger LRRP. While training with him I have seen first hand what they were trained to do. All be it, it was 30 plus years ago, but other persons I know who came out of Fort Benning have much of the same training now. Drunk or not these persons have the ability programmed into them to defend them to the death if so pushed.

    To end this rant I say that the 3rd Black guy that got beat made the biggest mistake of them all. He underestimated his opponent. That right there will be your downfall every time. I like to live by the principle that he / she know more then me and thus proceed with caution. I guess the following old saying puts it best: The Sun shines on a dog’s ass every once and a while!

    Sorry for the long post…
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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