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Thread: UFC/Pride fighters today...

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    Warren044 is offline
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    Default UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Hello All. I am new to the forum and I have a lot of things on my mind as well as questions.

    I am a really big fan of Ed Parker and kenpo in general, as well as the real art of kenpo.

    The question I have today came upon an arguement that my friends and I had last week. They do not really know much about martial arts either. The question is this:

    Would masters like Ed Parker, bruce lee or even the finest martial artists out there stand a chance vs the top UFC/Pride fighters in a ring or in a street today? Some people say the UFC/Pride fighters would pound them in a heart beat because of weight/height (which means nothing IMO), but I believe that the kenpo masters like Parker would take on anyone in a street fight and those top showbiz fighters too. Maybe not a ring fight because of rules / limitations. I even told them, Parker did not believe in fame, or show off, or any of that stuff like those dogfighters do on TV.

    I think the UFC/Pride fighting isnt even CLOSE to what the real masters are. They then question "Well why dont you see those masters in the ring?" And I say, probrably because they do not study kenpo for fame or showbiz..

    So the question is..

    Ed parker vs Top UFC fighters/Pride fighters, like Fedor, Crocrop, Gracie, who would win? I believe Fedor is undefeated, but I am not impressed with anyone on TV..

    I want your opinions because I think they wouldnt come close to Parker, or the grandmasters

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    who knows.. i know Ed and Bruce got in alot of real actual fights in their lives.. so they knew what they had worked in real life.. i would have liked to seen Parker and Gracie go at it. just to see what the master/founder on both systems would do, maybe not the outcome, but what they physically would do.

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    Warren044 is offline
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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    I dont think Gracie would stand anywhere near parkers level.. even when it comes to grappling, parker knew how to defend takedowns and also perform deadly defensive takedown moves. He would be 3 times quicker than gracie on the mat.

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Bruce Lee would have been eaten /alive/ by the UFC fighters inside of a ring. There is an instance where Gene LaBell carried him around in a fireman's carry for upwards of an hour without Lee being able to do anything. In general, Bruce wasn't much of a fighter. Okay philosopher, okay guy, not a proven fighter.

    Don't know about Ed Parker, but i'm willing to wager that in a ring they would have given him a run for his money too.

    And as for the UFC guys being 'dogfighters', might be true, doesn't make them any less effective in combat. I'd rather have a combat-weary dogfighter than 10 desk soft philosophers.

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Parker could grapple he did do Judo for a while before Kenpo. He was also a boxer, lastly he was tough so he probably would have done well in a ground and pound environment.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Well, I don't try to put myself on the level of SGM Ed Parker, or Sijo Bruce Lee, but..........

    Both trained more for street than sport.. With no dis-respect, Bruce may have had the cardio for MMA, but I truly doubt that Ed Parker did.

    I know I will piss off a few folks, but today we realize and understand the need for training in all ranges... If you can't bang standing, in the clinch, on the ground, and with weapons, than you are not full rounded..

    You may not need to be fully rounded to deal with Jim Bob on the street, but why not strive to be the best you can be..

    Anyway.... These comparisons of seniors that have passed away, and the modern generation will always be subjective.... How you gonna prove it??

    Keep up the hard training.

    Dean.

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Quote Originally Posted by usks1
    Anyway.... These comparisons of seniors that have passed away, and the modern generation will always be subjective.... How you gonna prove it??
    And sort of pointless. Someone once asked me who'd have won in a fight between Ed Parker and Remey Presas. I said I didn't know either man, but I had been privilaged to meet men like them. Had they met, I'm fairly certain they would have touched hands, and both systems would have been altered to some degree. That's how men like that are; they think, they learn form others, they evaluate based on their knowlege and experience, grounded in reality.

    But, my dad can still whip your dad, so there! (In other words, tell your friends to grow up and train in whatever art suits them- and train with and learn from each other, whatever you all do)

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Warren,

    Overall, these "theories" and debates go nowhere. The objective of your training is for you to learn to c.y.a and then build on it. Too many guys today are still in the mindset of instructor vs. instructor. I dropped out of that race a long time ago.

    You should spend the majority of your training time proving yourself worthy, to yourself. Once you find your answers and they are grounded in sound principles and practice, not mumbo jumbo theory and secret knowledge, then you can grab the ropes of your own heritage and forge your own future.

    In reality what we admire most about Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, Remy Presas and the like was not how tough the were, but how passionate they were about blazing their own trail.

    MHO on your question, guys today train daily in this day and age to "beat" skilled martial artists. It is a badge of honor to trample them into the dirt. In the past they just were in awe. It's time we get with it and train to beat those breaking into our homes trying to "ground and pound" us into the past. If you do nothing about it, don't cry about it either. Get out there and make a history for yourself.

    David Todd

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    Warren044 is offline
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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    I understand, and agree with some of the things you have said. But, it was just the curiousity that brought my question up. But forget about the ring, because neither Lee or Parker would fight for a ring. I'm talking about a street fight. NO rules, or restrictions. Rings have rules, and many in which you dont see. They fight dirty, but not street dirty. Every single UFC/Pride fighter I have seen fight has no finesse or quick moves. They maybe quick in their punchs/kicks, but wheres the finesse at? Grappling? I'm saying is, in a street, the best UFC fighter vs Parker for an example, you wouldnt need stamina for the ring, and there are no rules.

    I was once told parker could see every move his oponent would do before it happened, (slow motion) and he was a whirlwind in finesse. (Not acting like he was some god or something) but I'm just saying.. these guys in the UFC are kickboxing/juijitsu/wrestlers who have trained for years, not decades. They stick with MMA (Boxing/Grappling) with no finesse in a karate type way (maybe some, but they dont impress me). I mean seriously, these blue and green haired punks in a ring bashing each others lights out with no finesse. I even saw a guy with a 5 tatoos of jesus on UFC, claiming he was some sort of descendant. He has JESUS tatooed on his chest, lol? These kind of people are for what shows like UFC are for. No doubt. ENTERTAINMENT.

    And also, the so called "Karate" fighters on TV shows like this, they do not impress me one bit. Some perform some good moves, but they go into the ring, last 10 seconds on their feet, and get submissioned without a doubt. I see it as, these kind of "Self claimed" masters are not real masters. IMO, real grand masters would not step into the ring because it is simply not what they do. I have not YET seen one good martial artist or high degree belt in a ring. I have only seen dog warriors who are sloppy fighters. But then again, this discussion was mainly based on a street fight.

    First of all, Bruce Lee was one of the first major MMA fighters (if not THE first). I don't think he would be so limited as to be beaten consistently or easily as today's fighters. Movies aside, Bruce Lee was an excellent fighter who trained extensively, probably more than most modern MMA fighters. On top of that, he actually revolutionized the MM world with his concepts. I think he would have easily been able to adapt to a given situation.

    Yes, many of today's fighters are stronger and larger than Bruce Lee was. But size and strength alone determine nothing. Bruce Lee and Parker had a great combination of strength and speed along with technique that surpasses most of today's famous MMA fighters. Let's be honest, when you look at these "great" fighters at work, how many of them actually show refined technique or finesse? I won't deny that these people would tear me apart of course. But whenever I see their fights, it's clear that they are very sloppy and depend more on reflexes, strength, and resistance to damage than they do on their technique. Just look at all of the sloppy hits, knees, and kicks and you'll see what I mean.

    People bring grappling into the mix, but just because Bruce Lee or Parker never actually showed grappling techniques or fought against a grappler doesn't mean he couldn't have adapted to it. (Parker also knew grappling, and he was a very very big man). From what I see, MMA fighting tilts more toward Kick Boxing and Muay Thai than it does grappling and even in a situation when fighters are on the mat, it's not so much grappling as it is getting on top of the guy and either punching him or putting a knee to his face...

    I personally don't like today's MMA fighters because I think they're just far too sloppy. They look more like street fighters than they do Martial Artists. I think fighters like Bruce Lee and Parker would have an advantage over today's MMA fighters due to not only their balance, but their philosophy and view of the Martial Arts. MMA has become too scientific. The modern philosophy deals more with physiology than it does with technique, mindset, and the art itself. Granted, Bruce Lee and Parker were revolutionary for their time and are people that pioneered their way of thinking, but at the same time, it is clear that they never really lost sight of many of the traditional values of martial arts.

    Also, I don't think Bruce Lee or Parker would ever lower themselves to being a life-long street brawler, which is what most MMA competitions have become at this point. Do you think the top fighters in the world partake in these events? Absolutely not, and for good reason too.

    MMA in the form of competiton that most people know is only for dogs that need to prove themselves to the world. I don't think any true artist would lower himself to such a standard. Parker would never fall to that level. He knew he didnt need to, thats for sure.

    On a side note, people talk about weight and strength, but they fail to realize that it does not take a lot of strength or weight to knock a person out, take him down, or to kill him...

    BTW, size is only important because MMA fighting is not real fighting. That's why they divide people into weight classes. The Martial Arts weren't designed to be limited by the rules of competition. That is the inherent flaw of Martial Arts competitions. Bruce Lee and Parker would methodically rip apart just about any present day MMA fighter in a real fight, but that's just my opinion I suppose.


    Anyway.... These comparisons of seniors that have passed away, and the modern generation will always be subjective.... How you gonna prove it??
    Your are absolutely right. I guess we all have different opinions :P

    Sorry If I over did it, but as you can see my interest/fanliness for Parker is very strong. Only a few would probrably agree with me, but thats what opinions are for

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    I suspect that the top MMA fighters today would give ANY historical master a run for their money, within the context of an unarmed skillset. These types of comparisons are silly, but it would be even sillier to try to imagine a fight between Randy Couture and an armed Musashi.

    We only see MMA fighters in a context where there are rules, many people assume that is their entire skillset. Wrestlers are some of the dirtiest fighters I know, and they do it within the context of a ruleset. Don't expect the "no rules" of reality to suddenly give you an advantage. I met some MMA guys out out of SLC, guess what, one is a BJJ blackbelt and a certified Muay Thai instructor, but those are just ring arts right, he couldn't fight "no rules...." Uh huh, did I mention that he's a FMA instructor as well? That a fight with him won't be unarmed, and that maybe he has actually seen an eye gouge before? Don't underestimate these guys because they are fighting under a ruleset, they are regularly testing themselves against their peers, and quite frankly many of them train harder than the average kenpo blackbelt. Or maybe there is a reason that many of the kenpo seniors have a figure more like Tank Abbot than Helio Gracie.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    "This person is as dangerous as an IED."

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Quote Originally Posted by David Todd
    In reality what we admire most about Bruce Lee, Ed Parker, Remy Presas and the like was not how tough the were, but how passionate they were about blazing their own trail.

    MHO on your question, guys today train daily in this day and age to "beat" skilled martial artists. It is a badge of honor to trample them into the dirt. In the past they just were in awe. It's time we get with it and train to beat those breaking into our homes trying to "ground and pound" us into the past. If you do nothing about it, don't cry about it either. Get out there and make a history for yourself.

    David Todd
    Nicely put, buddy. Agreed 100%.

    How is everything in PA these days? Shoot me an email sometime.
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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    In a real fight with NO RULES I believe that SGM Parker would defeat most of them without much trouble.

    Did you ever see him move at street speed? At 260 lbs to move that fast with power and accuracy is amazing.

    A personal friend of mine has footage of Mr. Parker at my friends wedding and he is interviewed in a casual setting outside at the patio and said something to the effect of "Treat her right or Ill put the hand on you." Then he held it up to the camera. He had some "mits" on him.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate
    A personal friend of mine has footage of Mr. Parker at my friends wedding and he is interviewed in a casual setting outside at the patio and said something to the effect of "Treat her right or Ill put the hand on you." Then he held it up to the camera. He had some "mits" on him.
    My father and I had a conversation with Ed Parker back in April of 1989 at the Canadian Internationals, and the first thing we commented on after the conversation was "WOW....can you believe the size of his hands and fingers".

    I remember Paul Dye telling me back in 1997 of a time when Ed Parker hit him with the right heel palm claw when executing Shield and Mace....better him than me!
    I can do all things through Christ, who strengthens me.
    (Phillipians 4:13)


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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren044
    First of all, Bruce Lee was one of the first major MMA fighters (if not THE first). I don't think he would be so limited as to be beaten consistently or easily as today's fighters. Movies aside, Bruce Lee was an excellent fighter who trained extensively, probably more than most modern MMA fighters. On top of that, he actually revolutionized the MM world with his concepts. I think he would have easily been able to adapt to a given situation.
    Wrong. Bruce Lee was FAR from the first person to crosstrain in various areas of combat, and FAR from the first to espouse that being a well rounded fighter on the ground, in stand-up, or with weapons was a good idea.

    Bruce Lee had EIGHTEEN months of Wing Chun training before coming to America. Eighteen months of training, regardless of art, hardly makes you a great martial artist.

    Bruce had a passion that is rarely seen, but face it, he wasn't any kind of superior martial artist. He had very unique ideas and thoughts on things, but they were mostly a combonation of other things he'd read or saw. He's not the first martial artist to crosstrain, not the first to say that strikes should be intercepted, not strictly blocked.

    Please, please stop bring Bruce to the level of a martial arts god. He really wasn't one.

    Ed Parker, by all accounts, was very good. After doing some research, I must agree. I'm not an american kenpoka, but it's cool to see that he crosstrained and was that fast and accurate at his size.

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekon
    Wrong. Bruce Lee was FAR from the first person to crosstrain in various areas of combat, and FAR from the first to espouse that being a well rounded fighter on the ground, in stand-up, or with weapons was a good idea.

    Bruce Lee had EIGHTEEN months of Wing Chun training before coming to America. Eighteen months of training, regardless of art, hardly makes you a great martial artist.

    Bruce had a passion that is rarely seen, but face it, he wasn't any kind of superior martial artist. He had very unique ideas and thoughts on things, but they were mostly a combonation of other things he'd read or saw. He's not the first martial artist to crosstrain, not the first to say that strikes should be intercepted, not strictly blocked.

    Please, please stop bring Bruce to the level of a martial arts god. He really wasn't one.

    Ed Parker, by all accounts, was very good. After doing some research, I must agree. I'm not an american kenpoka, but it's cool to see that he crosstrained and was that fast and accurate at his size.

    I thought bruce lee's main focus of style was Jeet Kun Do (almost 2 decades if im correct). Eighteen months of wing chun, but that was not his main style I believe? He also had a few years training with 4-5 other styles as well, and grappling technique too.

    IMO, the only MMA fighter I have seen or that has impressed me little that could give someone like Lee or Parker a good street fight would be the russian Fedor.. he is pretty damn good

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    I read somewhere that SGM Parker carried a gun. So yeah, I'd give it to him in a no rules street fight.

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    My father and I had a conversation with Ed Parker back in April of 1989 at the Canadian Internationals, and the first thing we commented on after the conversation was "WOW....can you believe the size of his hands and fingers".

    I remember Paul Dye telling me back in 1997 of a time when Ed Parker hit him with the right heel palm claw when executing Shield and Mace....better him than me!
    Must have been awesome to meet the man. I kept saying, Ill get to the west coast someday. Then it was to late.

    Got any photos with him? Would love to see any if you are willing to share.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren044
    I thought bruce lee's main focus of style was Jeet Kun Do (almost 2 decades if im correct). Eighteen months of wing chun, but that was not his main style I believe? He also had a few years training with 4-5 other styles as well, and grappling technique too.

    IMO, the only MMA fighter I have seen or that has impressed me little that could give someone like Lee or Parker a good street fight would be the russian Fedor.. he is pretty damn good
    Bruce created JKD. He based it on his eighteen months experience in Wing Chun and his smattering of training in other styles. He wasn't nearly as awesome as legends would have you believe. Competent, but not the best.

    Also, street fights are different from ring fights, element of surprise, etc etc. I'd stay put my money on one of the UFC's top against Lee, just my .02.

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Well we have no proof of the actual who vs who and what the outcome would be. But, some people see the TV biz different than what actual martial art is in general.

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    Default Re: UFC/Pride fighters today...

    Quote Originally Posted by Dekon
    Bruce created JKD. He based it on his eighteen months experience in Wing Chun and his smattering of training in other styles. He wasn't nearly as awesome as legends would have you believe. Competent, but not the best.

    Also, street fights are different from ring fights, element of surprise, etc etc. I'd stay put my money on one of the UFC's top against Lee, just my .02.
    The thing about Bruce Lee was his dedication to constant improvement and training ethics. He trained as hard if not harder than any UFC veteran. It's pretty much what killed him. Born with natural speed and a gift for learning quickly was what made him famous.

    Read "Unsettled Matters" by Tom Bleecker. He was married to Linda Lee after Bruce passed and wrote several books on Bruce. Warning, they are not what you may expect.

    Keep Training!
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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