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Thread: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

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    Question Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    I got a question for some of you... I been learning Kenpo since early 1989.. and I been watching the ufc since it started in the 90's.. I seen some great fighters come and go on there.. seen a number of different arts in there.. but only seen one kenpo guy in the ufc that was any good and that was back when Royce Gracie was there... with Gracie making a return to the ufc, it made me think of this by the way... with all the kenpoist out there in the world why hasn't any one stepped up.... even I was going to at one time but do to an injury I suffered in the beginning of my training I couldn't continue with my goals to enter some sort of a MMA.. I am training a few students now and one is very interested in this... but really, is kenpo not as good as I feel it is.. or is every one to much of a pacifist to enter the ring to show the world how good Kenpo still is, even after Mr. Parker has past??? at one time kenpo was in every great martial artist back ground.. now its some form of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu... I personally don't get why Gracie is so glorified... all he does is roll around on the ground and wait till his opponent gets tired or frustrated and they let him get a lock or choke on them... kind of a cheese win in my opinion... I know a win is a win.. but its silly to see this guy roll around and win all the time.. even the one kenpo guy (Keith Hackney) I seen go against Gracie.. lost to a (armlock)... is Gracie that good that every kenpo artist in the world fears him.. or is every one so caught up in our own civil war on who's kenpo is better, to take the time to show every one kenpo is still a great art???? Mr. parker sure wouldn't allow for this to happen and ever since his passing, I cant believe all the bickering and fighting that goes on in the world over who is right and who is the true head kenpo guy.. and so on... its crazy that all the politics that has fallen in to all this.. its to bad that Mr. Parker didn't set things up for his passing or set kenpo up to go one after his death but as most of us do we never think that's is going to happen.. it would have been nice if ever one would have worked together and made kenpo stronger instead of worrying more about who is right and who is wrong... I was very saddened by all of this when Mr. parker passed on and it has gotten completely out of control.. even the Ikka went out of business.. Even Ed parker JR has disappear out of site.. I mean nothing is being said about him on the net.... weird how things change in 16 years...

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Qui
    I got a question for some of you... I been learning Kenpo since early 1989.. and I been watching the ufc since it started in the 90's.. I seen some great fighters come and go on there.. seen a number of different arts in there.. but only seen one kenpo guy in the ufc that was any good and that was back when Royce Gracie was there... with Gracie making a return to the ufc, it made me think of this by the way... with all the kenpoist out there in the world why hasn't any one stepped up.... even I was going to at one time but do to an injury I suffered in the beginning of my training I couldn't continue with my goals to enter some sort of a MMA.. I am training a few students now and one is very interested in this... but really, is kenpo not as good as I feel it is.. or is every one to much of a pacifist to enter the ring to show the world how good Kenpo still is, even after Mr. Parker has past??? at one time kenpo was in every great martial artist back ground.. now its some form of Gracie Jiu-Jitsu... I personally don't get why Gracie is so glorified... all he does is roll around on the ground and wait till his opponent gets tired or frustrated and they let him get a lock or choke on them... kind of a cheese win in my opinion... I know a win is a win.. but its silly to see this guy roll around and win all the time.. even the one kenpo guy (Keith Hackney) I seen go against Gracie.. lost to a (armlock)... is Gracie that good that every kenpo artist in the world fears him.. or is every one so caught up in our own civil war on who's kenpo is better, to take the time to show every one kenpo is still a great art???? Mr. parker sure wouldn't allow for this to happen and ever since his passing, I cant believe all the bickering and fighting that goes on in the world over who is right and who is the true head kenpo guy.. and so on... its crazy that all the politics that has fallen in to all this.. its to bad that Mr. Parker didn't set things up for his passing or set kenpo up to go one after his death but as most of us do we never think that's is going to happen.. it would have been nice if ever one would have worked together and made kenpo stronger instead of worrying more about who is right and who is wrong... I was very saddened by all of this when Mr. parker passed on and it has gotten completely out of control.. even the Ikka went out of business.. Even Ed parker JR has disappear out of site.. I mean nothing is being said about him on the net.... weird how things change in 16 years...
    IMHO, Kenpo is more of a SD oriented art than competition based. With the long list of rules that are set for MMA fights, I'd have to say that a Kenpoist, unless they made significant changes to what they do, would probably get DQ'd. You'll often hear many of the MMA groupies say, "Ohhh, the people who do TMA's don't enter MMA because their techniques are too deadly!" Again, keep in mind that we are talking about 2 different things, ring and street. Why should I have to limit my dirty tricks to conform to the ring?

    I'm not saying that Royce is a bad fighter, but I do agree that he does play the game: clinch with the person, take them to where he is comfy (the ground) and wait until they tire out, then go for a submission.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    SGM Parker never wanted Kenpo to traditionalized and always urged people to explore other avenues to make their kenpo their own. The IKKA failed because their were no true seniors to run it. Ed Parker Jr. is an amazing artist and I think it is unfair that the Kenpo community expects him to put Kenpo first when his real passion is Art. He may not be very visible but he is doing a lot fomr the art with developing his Kenpo Cards.

    As for trying to rile people up with the UFC crap, I really don't think it is needed on this site. We are all here to learn and share from each other.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    So you don't like how Royce won? A "cheese win?"

    It seems to me that no one else was able to hurt enough before they wound up tapping out. By UFC 3 everyone knew Royce's game and they still couldn't do anything about it. Watch Hackney hold on to the fence for dear life, despite outweighing Royce by 30 something pounds. The simple answer is: "Yes, Royce was that good." Now the thing you have to worry about isn't Royce, its 13 years of the MMA world catching on, and learning the game. Royce isn't considered a MMA god anymore, maybe not even top 5 for his weight. How do you think the 1993 Keith Hackney or Zane Frazier would fair in the current MMA rings? I'm guessing poorly, very poorly. The only kenpo fighter of note in the MMA rings that I know of is Jeff Newton and he isn't on anybodys top 10 rankings. (And don't give me Chuck Liddell, show me where his weird loopy punches are derived from EPAK handwork. )

    As for fouls, Gerard Gordeaux (sp?) was well known for fouling in the ring, one of his opponents got a detached retina from an eye gouge, another got bit. What happened when he ran into Royce? Oh yeah, he lost. "Dirty tricks" aren't going to save you when the other guy knows them too.

    The fact is, most kenpoists are hobbiests, we don't train like someone who plans to do full contact fighting, and we sure as hell don't train the different ranges like MMA guys do. The average black belt instructor isn't going to risk his arm/body/brain in a full contact match. The simple fact is, that most middle-high level MMA practitioners have all the tools and mentalities to take a kenpo blackbelt. The one time in 10 years of sparring my instructor that I ever felt like I beat him, was when I took him down, took his back, and did a rear-naked choke until he tapped. The only reason this happened was he wasn't trained on the ground, and just like most untrained guys he gave up his back. (This was a huge exception, most of the time our fights end with me doing the wobbly TKO dance.)

    Anywho, Royce is respected because he fought and defeated a whole freakin' bunch of people in the closest thing we can simulate to a real fight. I'm afraid doing dance of death on one of your students just doesn't compare to that, its a bad idea to compare fighters with hobbiests. (Oh, if you don't like the whole ground-fighting thing, fine, are your kenpo skills going to let you hang in a standup fight with Mirko Filopovic?)

    Lamont

    PS: I like kenpo, I study kenpo, I advocate kenpo, but I also advocate a realistic view.
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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    So no one cares that Chuck Liddell is a kempo man, and one of the best competitors in the UFC?
    not all kempo is EPAK.

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    This thread on MartialTalk discussed the whole TMA vs MMA vs UFC thing in depth. http://www.martialtalk.com/forum/showthread.php?t=32843

    Simply put, most of the 'effective' techniques in TMA's can cost you in a sport situation. I mean, do EPAK's "Bowing to Budda", and you'll get DQed.
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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Well, I can say with total certainty that I'm not the least bit afraid of him.

    That's partly because I don't expect to come across him and he doesn't know where I live.

    Plus, I don't plan on pissing him off anytime soon, so I feel I'm totally safe and can move without fear.

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    So no one cares that Chuck Liddell is a kempo man, and one of the best competitors in the UFC?
    not all kempo is EPAK.
    I agree with you whole heartedly.

    I was first exposed to Kenpo back in 89 when I was in the U.S.A.F. and loved it. Afterwards, I couldn't find a school so I studied different things. For the last 7 years straight, just about every single day, I've practiced Kenpo. But prior to that, when the UFC was still very young, I studied, practiced, and even did some local competing in Jiu-Jitsu. It's a great sport, but it's not real fighting when rules are involved. The scars on my knuckles and head prove I've been in a scrap or two outside the ring and it's is a completely different world. Big John McCarthy never ran out in the street and stopped a fight for me!!

    That being said, I do advocate training in some form of grappling if your school doesn't do so already. It pays to be proficient in all ranges... and the ground game is a range sometimes overlooked by arts that primarily strike. The world is unpredictable and you just never know so you should train and be prepared for any eventuality... including fighting on the ground.

    As for "Kenpoist" in the UFC.... (other than Chuck ).. I couldn't tell you why. 90% of them claim to crosstrain grappling and kick boxing not stating any specific art. Most of what I've seen lately are young guys with something to prove. I persnally have nothing to prove to anyone (not to mention I'm too old for it.) There were some in the early days when the only rules were "no fish hooking, and no eye guaging." Ah...those were the days... I believe a Kenpoist won UFC 3..but I can't remember his name. He started out as an alternate actually. Go rent it and see for yourself.

    Afterthought: I love and advocate Kenpo, but if it's not what you're looking for or doesn't "feel" right to you... you may want to investigate other forms of martial arts or another school/organization. There is an MA out there that's right for you. Peace.....
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    So no one cares that Chuck Liddell is a kempo man, and one of the best competitors in the UFC? not all kempo is EPAK.
    Is he just a "kempo man" or does his training in karate, wrestling, BJJ, and kickboxing maybe have an impact on his style? The SLO academy only teaches "Hawaiian Kempo" to kids below thirteen, for the adults it is kickboxing, boxing, and grappling.

    Lamont
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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside
    Is he just a "kempo man" or does his training in karate, wrestling, BJJ, and kickboxing maybe have an impact on his style? The SLO academy only teaches "Hawaiian Kempo" to kids below thirteen, for the adults it is kickboxing, boxing, and grappling.

    Lamont
    wasnt his primary teacher John Hackleman?

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside
    Is he just a "kempo man" or does his training in karate, wrestling, BJJ, and kickboxing maybe have an impact on his style? The SLO academy only teaches "Hawaiian Kempo" to kids below thirteen, for the adults it is kickboxing, boxing, and grappling.

    Lamont
    He's a good "fighter." Training helps, but we all pull from whatever knowledge, experience, and training we have throughout our life. Does that make him a Kenpo/Kempo man? It does in my opinion because a Kenpo/Kempo man does whatever it takes to accomplish his goals.

    BTW, I didn't state so earlier but NO, I'm not afraid of Gracie and neither is "Smitty." That's my S&W .45 I keep under the seat of my truck. LOL
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    I'm not quite sure why anyone would be afraid of him. Of all the UFC fights I seen him in I believe he won on submission. The guy isn't going to knock someone out. Royce is going to shoot get on the mat and work like a snake until you give up. In all likelyhood no one is going to get beat up it would be a good learning experience more than anything.

    My only regrets are that my buddy that teaches JJ trains with Rickson everytime he gets a chance. I wish I had the monies to get into 1 or so of his seminars at his studio.

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    wasnt his primary teacher John Hackleman?
    Heh, look if you want to define kempo as "punches alot" then fine, I'm with you, hes a kempo guy.

    Lamont
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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside
    Heh, look if you want to define kempo as "punches alot" then fine, I'm with you, hes a kempo guy.

    Lamont
    All those guys like to punch alot thats boxing and thats why they call it MMA.
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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    "When pure knuckles meet pure flesh that's karate. It doesn't matter what style you call it....." SGM Ed Parker
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    "When pure knuckles meet pure flesh that's karate. It doesn't matter what style you call it....." SGM Ed Parker
    LOL Hey Hey now, you got me.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Oh yeah!! Man...if I'd only read your signature I could have gotten it word for word! LOL. I was going from memory.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Oh yeah!! Man...if I'd only read your signature I could have gotten it word for word! LOL. I was going from memory.
    well arent you special lol.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate
    All those guys like to punch alot thats boxing and thats why they call it MMA.
    That was what I was trying to get at.
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    Default Re: Is every Kenpoist afraid of Royce Gracie???

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside
    That was what I was trying to get at.
    I thought so
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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