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Thread: Fighting vs. Sparring

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    Default Fighting vs. Sparring

    I have been out of the tournament thing for some time and for me, that's just fine.

    I decided that I wanted to brush up on my sparring skills, so I went to sparring class. I was a little disappointed to see that class seemed to be entirely about point-fighting.

    I"m not that interested in that.

    It seems to me that if you want to learn to fight, you have to be willing, at times, to give up a wheelkick to the gut, to plant a great backknuckle to the head, etc. You can't do that in point-fighting.

    Do your schools make a differentiation between point-fighting and general fighting?

    I don't like the 'clash-separate' -- 'clash-separate' thing with point fighting. I certainly think there's a lot to be learned with point fighting (lots of them would kick my butt either way), but it seems that it's not the same thing.

    Also, I can't get past the 'no groin shots' nonsense that is in most tournaments that I've seen in this area.

    If you don't have groin shots, then how can you learn to protect yourself from them?

    Thoughts?

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    We let 'em go wild! If it gets too crazy we split 'em up.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    So you don't train for point fighting then?

    Since my instructor and his best sparring student are into tournaments, that's what they train for.

    Some of then are pretty amazing to watch --Justin has some funky kicks that impress me mightily, but when I spar with him, I find that he leaves his groin open a lot because nobody kicks there in tournaments.

    --Amy
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    It has to have some type of control in the enviornment. Otherwise no one will learn anything. No one likes to just get beat up and you don't really learn anything that way. Also, you could possibly lose a student that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    So you don't train for point fighting then?
    I have only taught our sparring classes maybe 10 - 15 times in the last few years. No, I don't teach them for point fighting. However some have expressed interest in doing so. At that point then I guess they will need my help, if they are really that interested. Generally no one from studio attends tournaments on a regular basis. Maybe once a year if that.

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    I suppse if and when we start teaching little kids classes we'll have to tone it down some. Most of our current students beg for more though.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    It has to have some type of control in the enviornment. Otherwise no one will learn anything. No one likes to just get beat up and you don't really learn anything that way. Also, you could possibly lose a student that way.
    I'm not sure what you mean. Are you considering the lack of groin kicks to be a control of the environment?

    I think men should wear cups.

    --Amy
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    I'll give you a scenario.

    2 guys are going at it like it's their last dying breath. One trying to out do the other. Nothing is controlled nor is the enviornment they are in. One of the people gets busted up badly b/c 1 of them can't control themselves. Now I don't know about everyone else here but I have to go to work the next day. I dont' want broken ribs, fingers, foot, leg, arm or what have you. People have to be watched or someone could get seriously hurt. Same as I said before there's always a possibility of losing a student b/c of it.

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I'm not sure what you mean. Are you considering the lack of groin kicks to be a control of the environment?
    Read my post above this one and you will understand what I"m talkin' about.

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by jfarnsworth
    I'll give you a scenario.

    2 guys are going at it like it's their last dying breath. One trying to out do the other. Nothing is controlled nor is the enviornment they are in. One of the people gets busted up badly b/c 1 of them can't control themselves. Now I don't know about everyone else here but I have to go to work the next day. I dont' want broken ribs, fingers, foot, leg, arm or what have you. People have to be watched or someone could get seriously hurt. Same as I said before there's always a possibility of losing a student b/c of it.
    Oh, I agree that there needs to be control, but I just didnt' see how it related to what I was talking about. (Still kinda don't.)
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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    My post wasn't directed towards you. You just got your post in slightly before mine.

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Ah hah. That explains it.

    I agreed with your post, I just didn't get the connection.

    There should be a controlled environment for sparring. Absolutely.

    I don't think they should be able to go nuts unless they are well-padded and at least respect the rules of the ring.

    There's no reason to blast anyone.

    If you have to hit that hard to let them know they were hit, then you need to work on your technique and control. So, I agree with you.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    We let 'em go wild! If it gets too crazy we split 'em up.
    That sounds good to me. If I have students that are going to a tournament than I work on point fighting with them. THe rest of the time we let them learn by letting them keep going until we have something to teach or they want to stop.
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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Fighting and Sparring are both very different.

    Point fighting is a glorified game of tag these days.

    Attend a hard core TKD event and watch how they hit each other, its darn near full contact. The only thing I dont like is they cant punch to the face.

    They can only score points with "trembling force" when a blow lands. If it causes no movement its not scored even if it hits.

    IMO - you have to hit and be hit to know what to expect in a real situation. I have seen some great point fighters get their arses handed to them in full contact.

    My 2 cents.
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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate
    Fighting and Sparring are both very different.

    Point fighting is a glorified game of tag these days.

    Attend a hard core TKD event and watch how they hit each other, its darn near full contact. The only thing I dont like is they cant punch to the face.

    They can only score points with "trembling force" when a blow lands. If it causes no movement its not scored even if it hits.

    IMO - you have to hit and be hit to know what to expect in a real situation. I have seen some great point fighters get their arses handed to them in full contact.

    My 2 cents.
    Trembling force sounds a little heavy-handed, but I like the idea.

    When I was 17, I was in a school that regulary hit hard. At first, I wasn't too happy about it, but I realized that if I was hit hard, then I knew how to take a hit.

    So when I was hit, my body wasn't shocked and I could respond more quickly and with greater intensity. In other words, I wasn't crying in the corner.

    On the plus side, I was pretty tough. On the minus side, I looked like a battered woman. Not so pretty in shorts.

    I don't think I'd like that abuse now. I'm just a hair over 17 now. ahem.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate
    Attend a hard core TKD event and watch how they hit each other, its darn near full contact. The only thing I dont like is they cant punch to the face..
    I have been apart of that and on the bad end of that deal more times than I care to remember. Although it was great expereince that helped me in many ways.

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I have been out of the tournament thing for some time and for me, that's just fine.

    I decided that I wanted to brush up on my sparring skills, so I went to sparring class. I was a little disappointed to see that class seemed to be entirely about point-fighting.

    I"m not that interested in that.

    It seems to me that if you want to learn to fight, you have to be willing, at times, to give up a wheelkick to the gut, to plant a great backknuckle to the head, etc. You can't do that in point-fighting.
    Yep.

    Do your schools make a differentiation between point-fighting and general fighting?
    No. The standard is unprotected hard contact except the the head, with throwing and grappling altered based on skill level. We don't want anybody breaking their hands, arms, legs or spine.

    I don't like the 'clash-separate' -- 'clash-separate' thing with point fighting. I certainly think there's a lot to be learned with point fighting (lots of them would kick my butt either way), but it seems that it's not the same thing.
    Well, it happens at heavy contact levels too. The exchanges just tend to be longer.

    Also, I can't get past the 'no groin shots' nonsense that is in most tournaments that I've seen in this area.

    If you don't have groin shots, then how can you learn to protect yourself from them?
    Actually, you'll always have plenty of opportunity to defend against groin shots even when they're not allowed, because unless you stand and move properly, attacks (especially counterkicking) will tend to gravitate there. If you ignore them, it'll hurt, even if they don't "score."

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    So when I was hit, my body wasn't shocked and I could respond more quickly and with greater intensity. In other words, I wasn't crying in the corner.--Amy

    Exactly!

    It forces you to hit hard enough to score but not "full contact".

    Your quote is the exact reason to use it too.

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Sparring can do one of several things, it all depends on what you want to do with it.
    Point sparring creates habits that are good for point sparring but not good for self defense.......you get into the habit of tagging your opponent and not commiting an attack or counter-attack.
    Full contact sparring with gear on makes people a bit more brave becauses it reduces the threat of injury, this leads to people leaving their guard down or not having an effective guard. It also leads to carelessness in regards to controlling the level of attack. A padded hand making hard contact on the upper protected abdomen doesn't have a whole lot o' oomph.......leading someone to believe that a "real" gut shot isn't a big deal.

    I guess it all boils down to what you want to use martial arts for, you have to "train" your body in the manner you want to use it.

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    Default Re: Fighting vs. Sparring

    Yesterday, I competed in my first tournament this year placed 1st in forms , 2nd in weapons but lost my first fight in point sparring. Now I'm not overly upset about this lose because I don't claim to be a point fighter. I think point fighting has its place but I train in continous fighting and I'm not sure if I'm willing to switch my training to win another trophy. From what I saw yesterday its creates alot of bad habits that I don't agree with but saying that some of the fighters are good and have the game of point fighting down pat.

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