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Thread: Straight punches for beginners

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    Default Straight punches for beginners

    Ever noticed that ALL of the defenses against a straight punch are executed on the outside? I'm not suggesting that it isn't possible to take the inside - clearly you can, and I do, but your not as protected, unless of course you're armed and quick with follow up strikes/checks.

    I noticed this several months ago when working with a school who teaches Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction for straight punches. It seemed a little awkward for when the students were executing it against a realistic attack they were having trouble. Now I know that even though DS is written for a lapel grab, it can be done for a hook, push, straight p or what have you, but given that ALL other straight punch techniques are written to be handled from the outside, it made me think that this wasn't such a good approach in the beginning curriculum and that there are defenses for straight punches in the system already for that level that work well and it's better to show the students how to use DS to defend against the lapel grab or hook initially and work Attacking Mace for the straight. I noticed the students, when the attack was coming at their nose, had a hard time with it and they stumbled frequently and were leaving themselves wide open for a nice front tackle from the attacker, but had much less problems working the outside of the straight on Attacking Mace.

    As students move up in the system I think they become much more capable to handle straight punches from the inside. I do a lot of grafting from the inside of straight punches because I like the opportunity to work on the front side vitals ( I call it buffet ). One I like to work is Circling Desturction for the inside of a right straight punch. After the first backnuckle, reverse the motion for clutching feathers's over head heel palm claw and backnuckle high, swith to right extended outward block to catch attackers follow up left punch/grab/or just covering up of their face and start five swords at the left eye poke/heel palm to the face and down to the right uppercut.

    With a well executed and solid inward block and follow up kick, I'm sure a beginner could handle the straight from the inside, but it seemed to me that the beginners had more success and subsequent confidence when working the written curriculum.

    blah blah blah.. just my .02
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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    It is usually easier to go to the outside. And teaching that first builds confidence in the students skills. We introduce inside techniques at the same time and discuss the differences. Like not taking on mass, less room for mistakes, etc.

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    If you go on the inside, you have a better chance of getting hit with your opponents other hand.

    A way Ive seen to help that at the beginner level is to start out with delayed sword. Have the attacker start to bring in their other hand...instead of finishing delayed sword, go from the punch to the bicep to an outer block. You can then graft sword of destruction to not only check the incoming arm, but to finish off the attacker.

    I hope my gibberish made sense.
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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    I love to parry a straight punch and create an angle of obscurity to the outside. You can totally own your opponent from that angle.

    We practice DS against a straight punch to though. From a natural standing position, it's not that awkward to step up the circle and execute the inward block...at least I don't think it is anyway. But you do have to consider a left punch follow up and may have to graft into Sword of Destruction. Makes for a good drill.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Yes indeed, Susan. I also teach that in my grafting class.
    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu
    If you go on the inside, you have a better chance of getting hit with your opponents other hand.

    A way Ive seen to help that at the beginner level is to start out with delayed sword. Have the attacker start to bring in their other hand...instead of finishing delayed sword, go from the punch to the bicep to an outer block. You can then graft sword of destruction to not only check the incoming arm, but to finish off the attacker.

    I hope my gibberish made sense.
    -Camey

    "You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people? "

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Hooray! I made sense - I will mark it on the calander
    Susan A. Spann

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    I like going inside on a straight punch.
    While it may appear that it's easier to get tagged by your opponents other hand, that will only happen if you stand still.
    For example, a straight right is thrown and you go inside with a parry and draw your opponents weight down and forward......this will force his next punch to take a different trajectory, it will force it to go up as they rotate.
    this gives you the perfect opportunity to drop a big backfist to the right side of their face.

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    I love to parry a straight punch and create an angle of obscurity to the outside. You can totally own your opponent from that angle.

    We practice DS against a straight punch to though. From a natural standing position, it's not that awkward to step up the circle and execute the inward block...at least I don't think it is anyway. But you do have to consider a left punch follow up and may have to graft into Sword of Destruction. Makes for a good drill.
    Angle of obscurity? Please explain.
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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    Ever noticed that ALL of the defenses against a straight punch are executed on the outside? I'm not suggesting that it isn't possible to take the inside - clearly you can, and I do, but your not as protected, unless of course you're armed and quick with follow up strikes/checks.

    I noticed this several months ago when working with a school who teaches Delayed Sword and Sword of Destruction for straight punches. It seemed a little awkward for when the students were executing it against a realistic attack they were having trouble. Now I know that even though DS is written for a lapel grab, it can be done for a hook, push, straight p or what have you, but given that ALL other straight punch techniques are written to be handled from the outside, it made me think that this wasn't such a good approach in the beginning curriculum and that there are defenses for straight punches in the system already for that level that work well and it's better to show the students how to use DS to defend against the lapel grab or hook initially and work Attacking Mace for the straight. I noticed the students, when the attack was coming at their nose, had a hard time with it and they stumbled frequently and were leaving themselves wide open for a nice front tackle from the attacker, but had much less problems working the outside of the straight on Attacking Mace.

    As students move up in the system I think they become much more capable to handle straight punches from the inside. I do a lot of grafting from the inside of straight punches because I like the opportunity to work on the front side vitals ( I call it buffet ). One I like to work is Circling Desturction for the inside of a right straight punch. After the first backnuckle, reverse the motion for clutching feathers's over head heel palm claw and backnuckle high, swith to right extended outward block to catch attackers follow up left punch/grab/or just covering up of their face and start five swords at the left eye poke/heel palm to the face and down to the right uppercut.

    With a well executed and solid inward block and follow up kick, I'm sure a beginner could handle the straight from the inside, but it seemed to me that the beginners had more success and subsequent confidence when working the written curriculum.

    blah blah blah.. just my .02
    Our beginning curriculum for white belts purposely has to techniques specifically forcing them to go inside of a right stright punch. "Sword of Doom," and "Double Maces." They are also taught to go inside of a left straight arm as well. "Defensive Shield."
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    The interesting thing to me about this question is the personal perspectives that the repliers shows. Students are like clean slates. They come with limited perspectives, if they have any at all, regarding the efficacy of Kenpo.

    Instruction needs to take, in my opinion, a broader view of what is presented. If you present and teach, to a beginning student, that it is ok to go inside on a punch defense, and then drill it, the student ought to feel comfortable with going to the inside. Granted, there is more work to be done to be comfortable on the inside, but the rewards (targets and opportunities) are probably greater in the overall scheme of target availability.

    As a matter of fact, in my school, the first two techniques in Yellow belt are punch defenses, Japanese Sword A, B, and Chinese Sword A, B. These techniques, while being outside defenses for punches, will work well as inside defenses as well... And I teach them as stepping into the punch. Conditioning the student to accept limitations, as it were, then to move on i shte greatest asset the student will develop in thinking and planning for self defense.

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by Miyu View Post
    If you go on the inside, you have a better chance of getting hit with your opponents other hand.

    A way Ive seen to help that at the beginner level is to start out with delayed sword. Have the attacker start to bring in their other hand...instead of finishing delayed sword, go from the punch to the bicep to an outer block. You can then graft sword of destruction to not only check the incoming arm, but to finish off the attacker.

    I hope my gibberish made sense.
    What you're doing here also looks like the beginning of Fatal Deviation. Is it really that much harder to deal with a straight punch from the inside? It's been so long I forget how a beginner may see the world.

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    We have a number of techniques that take the inside. Although taking the outside may sound like the best place to be, it's not always true. Take you're basic round house for instance. Should you step inside with a double block, one at the wrist and other at the bicep, you've now broken the plain and made the punch much less effective. There are a myriad of things you can do at this point whether it be strike with the lead hand, wrist grab with an arm bar or even step in behind with the lead leg and take them to the ground for a further beating. Don't forget all the elbows you want to throw, front or rear scoops to the groin while crossing back out or even grabbing the wrist and stepping under the arm for a rear arm lock.

    So you see, although the outside may seem logical, the inside can have it's distinct advantages under the right circumstances.
    Loyal student of Sifu DangeRuss
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    "Jeet Kune Do: it's just a name; don't fuss over it. There's no such thing as a style if you understand the roots of combat." -Bruce Lee

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Off the top of my head I cannot think of any technique we use against a roundhouse punch where we go to the outside for the initial movement. I used to definately prefer going to the outside and I still lean that way, but I agree that the inside opens up lots of opportunities for grafting, takedowns, etc. The outside does give the opponents back which any grappler would love. I'd rather have the back just in case I am up against a strong grappler because I am weak in this area. I'd hate to goe inside only to get reversed and end up in someones guard or worse, getting mounted.

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Any straight arm push technique should also work vs a straight punch.

    DS is a great example, we train it from a grab 1st, push 2nd and punch 3rd.

    Doc, would you mind posting the examples of one of the techniques you listed. I would be very interested to see them considering your vast experience in Kenpo and the arts.

    I understand if SL-4 is proprietary and you would rather not.

    Thanks in advance for the consideration.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post
    Any straight arm push technique should also work vs a straight punch.

    DS is a great example, we train it from a grab 1st, push 2nd and punch 3rd.

    Doc, would you mind posting the examples of one of the techniques you listed. I would be very interested to see them considering your vast experience in Kenpo and the arts.

    I understand if SL-4 is proprietary and you would rather not.

    Thanks in advance for the consideration.
    SubLevel Four Kenpo is not proprietory sir, and I have always freely shared information with those willing to have an open mind in person. It is however, not the simplistic kenpo most are accustomed to, and contains mechanisms that must be felt, taught, and corrected to reach a superior level of execution, that the written word cannot convey to someone who has not had instruction. I'm sure there are a few that will chime in on their experience.


    DELAYED SWORD



    10. DELAYED SWORD:

    ATTACK: Front – walk up vigorously and strike and seize the left lapel with your right hand with your right arm bent, and your right leg forward, with your left hand cocked for a possible assault. The left hand is NOT a part of this scenario at this time.

    1. SURVIVE THE INITIAL ASSAULT of his body momentum and move back with your left foot toward 6:00 into a right transitional forward bow stance, executing a outward downward to HIGH INDEX.

    STUDY PARTNER: This action “disarms you” and makes it appear your victim is submitting to your action, and is intimidated.

    Pivot into a right neutral bow and execute a right inward to a downward hammer-fist strike to the upper right shoulder humerus point of your attacker's right arm with an PAM of the forward foot. Like “Alternating Maces,” BAM your right shoulder and PIN your attacker's right hand to your lapel with your left forearm and elbow against your chest.

    STUDY PARTNER: You are now pulled off balance and forced to take an adjustment step with your right foot to keep your balance as your right arm is elongated. The strike to the head of the humerous will cause your knees to buckle, drop you in height, lean to your right placing all your weight on your right foot, and weaken your grip strength in your seizing hand. Your height and depth should be controlled.

    2. Move your left foot FORWARD into a 45-degree cat stance as you FUSE your right arm to control depth at the shoulder. Without hesitation, using your FORWARD BODY MOMENTUM, deliver a right front snap GAUGING kick between your attacker's legs.

    STUDY PARTNER: The FUSED and BRACING right hand controls your depth and the kick between the legs will cause you to drop further in height as both legs buckle.

    With the knee still in the air AFTER the kick, punch forward with your right BRACING hand and raise your right hand to a BRACED INDEX, in preparation for the next strike.

    STUDY PARTNER: The punching action with his BRACING hand keeps you misaligned until the next strike.

    3. PAM your right foot forward into a right neutral bow, as you deliver a right outward diagonal downward hand-sword strike to the right side of the middle of your attacker's neck at a 45-degree angle with a BAM to your right shoulder.

    STUDY PARTNER: The hand-sword strike is a “finishing blow,” and will absolutely make you collapse and fall to your left, and to the ground.

    4. REBOUND to a right BRACED INDEX, and right cross out toward 7:30, with EXIT INDEXES and face your attacker in a neutral bow and PAM your forward foot. Executed properly, this sequence should cause Physical/Mental Disassociation.

    Execution Signature™: 1 2 P 3 C
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: Straight punches for beginners

    Thanks for sharing that technique. Good stuff to research.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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