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Thread: Realism in "Push" techniques

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    Default Realism in "Push" techniques

    When you teach or work defenses against push techniques, at least for the high pushes, do you typically have the training partner push once or twice? I personally feel that it is more realistic to have students, after they learn the tech, practice a one two push defense and also an anticipated defense. Have the attacker push them once and then execute the technique on the second push. Because UNLESS they are doing a charging push or you are anticipating it, I don't see the response time being such that you will get in say parting wings or triggered salute on the first try. Push me once shame on you, push me twice you're in trouble. Do you disagree?
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    When you teach or work defenses against push techniques, at least for the high pushes, do you typically have the training partner push once or twice? I personally feel that it is more realistic to have students, after they learn the tech, practice a one two push defense and also an anticipated defense. Have the attacker push them once and then execute the technique on the second push. Because UNLESS they are doing a charging push or you are anticipating it, I don't see the response time being such that you will get in say parting wings or triggered salute on the first try. Push me once shame on you, push me twice you're in trouble. Do you disagree?
    I think it's fair to say that most of us do not anticipate getting pushed. The first push is maybe a freebie. After you get pushed once, you know what you're dealing with and you can anticipate. And before we annhiliate someone, we should give them a chance to make one mistake -- the first push. After that, they get what they get.

    With the new students, I end up pushing them more than once anyway because even though they know I'm standing there waiting to push them, they still don't respond.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    All self-defense techniques require 'Read-Time'.

    I'm not sure that pushing a second time is the most realistic way of providing that read time, but it certainly is one way to do so. I am wondering if you give an attacker an opportunity to push once, if you'll be able to respond to a second push.

    Certainly, it is a good opportunity to discuss 'Situational Awareness'.

    "If you can't read it, you can't defend against it." - Mr. Planas

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    If I am aware of the person, they will only get one aggresive move (push). And, they probably wont finish it.

    If you don't see it, it depends on the situation as has been brought up. If you are in a crowded place, you may expect to get bumped or pushed some and evaluate before taking action. If you are walking down the mall, I would probably react differently. Check my wallet etc to see if I was pickpocketed, careless people on the cell phone, etc.

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    I used to hit everyone I came into contact with, but I found it wasn't the best way to make friends and influence people, so I decided against that.

    Sometimes, often times, a person can be talked down from just a push to avoid the problem all together. So to always react with a strong technique the first time someone punches you might be a bit over the top.

    Give them a chance to be wrong, then if they don't recognize that gift, give them a 'gift' back. Or maybe someting flashing.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    When you teach or work defenses against push techniques, at least for the high pushes, do you typically have the training partner push once or twice? I personally feel that it is more realistic to have students, after they learn the tech, practice a one two push defense and also an anticipated defense. Have the attacker push them once and then execute the technique on the second push. Because UNLESS they are doing a charging push or you are anticipating it, I don't see the response time being such that you will get in say parting wings or triggered salute on the first try. Push me once shame on you, push me twice you're in trouble. Do you disagree?
    Actually.... we usually practice to try and respond immediately to the first push. But...TBH...I hadn't really thought about it. I do believe you have a valid point though. Would you have time to react to the initial push? If you didn't expect it or feel threatened in the first place you may not be able to react. Something to play around with in class....good post!
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    There is usually an escalation up to the point of being pushed. First there are words and posturing and finally an action. If they do get a push in they should consider themselves very lucky because if they do so again they will get a nasty response.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Worst case scenario is that he pushes hard from in close, so that is how we generally practice it.

    If the push does connect high, Alternating Maces is the default technique, and we are expected to react ( "You don't stop just because the technique didn't work as you planned, do something else- we don't train victims here!" ).

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    When you teach or work defenses against push techniques, at least for the high pushes, do you typically have the training partner push once or twice? I personally feel that it is more realistic to have students, after they learn the tech, practice a one two push defense and also an anticipated defense. Have the attacker push them once and then execute the technique on the second push. Because UNLESS they are doing a charging push or you are anticipating it, I don't see the response time being such that you will get in say parting wings or triggered salute on the first try. Push me once shame on you, push me twice you're in trouble. Do you disagree?
    Why do you feel you will survive a first push? Some pushes take on the characteristics of an open hand punch causing a significant reaction and loss of balance and/or injury. If that is the case before you recover, the second action is more likely to be a punch rather than a second push. Even if it is a second push, how do you deal with a second when you have not yet survived the first?

    Where's my video?
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    I think it depends on one's level of preparedness. I practice it for both anticipated and not anticipated attacks. It seems to me from what I've seen in some of my white waste recepticle circles a tendency to push each other to try and secure some dominance over the person, but then as a person retaliates to the pushing it goes arry and fists are flailing.
    I'm definitely not in the camp of training to be a victim. Whoever sad that MISUNDERSTANDS. I think it's important to have realism in the attacks you are training against otherwise when they occur, if they occurr, who's to say that you'll be able to address it. Time after time I see people practicing a defense against a punch or a push that is not even CLOSE to being realistic (especially when the uke is punhcing or pushing clear off to the side of the body.. punching air really or stopping about 1 ft shy of the defender). Whenever, someone gives them a realistic attack, they fail to address it. And they are forced to retrain themselves to respond accordingly. I don't know how some schools get by w/ no physical contact.

    Video is a'coming. I'm minus a camera right now, but perhaps this weekend.
    Quote Originally Posted by Doc
    Why do you feel you will survive a first push? Some pushes take on the characteristics of an open hand punch causing a significant reaction and loss of balance and/or injury. If that is the case before you recover, the second action is more likely to be a punch rather than a second push. Even if it is a second push, how do you deal with a second when you have not yet survived the first?

    Where's my video?
    -Camey

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    I'm definitely not in the camp of training to be a victim. Whoever sad that MISUNDERSTANDS. I think it's important to have realism in the attacks you are training against otherwise when they occur, if they occurr, who's to say that you'll be able to address it..
    That was me. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did. It's a quote from one of my instructors. His point was if you are trying to practice a technique to intercept a push and the push slams home, don't just start over- do something to deal with it. Alternating Maces, or just recover and hit him. Stoping because you blew the tech you're working on would be ingraining bad habbits.

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    I'm sorry, I assumed because you had it in bold letters there that that's what you were thinking. Assume = ass of u and me. I understand his point completely. Thanks for posting.
    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    That was me. Sorry, I didn't mean to imply you did. It's a quote from one of my instructors. His point was if you are trying to practice a technique to intercept a push and the push slams home, don't just start over- do something to deal with it. Alternating Maces, or just recover and hit him. Stoping because you blew the tech you're working on would be ingraining bad habbits.
    -Camey

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    When working with brown and black belts I try to do the push as a Heel palm strike.

    Jeff

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    The more I think about this the more I think you would see it coming. If their intent is to actually shove you down or do real damage I believe their body language would give you plenty of notice prior to the attack. Personally...and this is just my philosophy... I'm not gonna wait for them to attack me. IF I determine they mean business and they get within my "bubble", it's on like neck bone. Know what I mean?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Okay.. a little unrelated but somehow connected. Have you all noticed that when we watch someone doing a technique the attacker tends to just kinda stand there as if just they are just going to take it. For instance if a dummy brings in a right straight punch, he may bring it in well, but he just stands there with his arm out until the defender finishes. I know I'm guilty of this at times too, but I was thinking recently when doing Shield and Sword, that person isn't just going to stand around until I get my next move in. Either you switch to using a wide kneel to prevent their forward momentum and drop them hard with the handsword... or you better get to that forward bow and elbow on the double. I've been trying to break myself of this too because I don't want to do a disservice to my partner.

    Anyway.. back to pushes
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    I've noticed that problem before. We try to "react" appropriatley to attacks when acting as the uke, but you know....there ain't but one way to really be sure. LOL. I suggest buying a "red-man" suite from Century and getting brave volunteer to really test these out. LOL.
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    The more I think about this the more I think you would see it coming. If their intent is to actually shove you down or do real damage I believe their body language would give you plenty of notice prior to the attack. Personally...and this is just my philosophy... I'm not gonna wait for them to attack me. IF I determine they mean business and they get within my "bubble", it's on like neck bone. Know what I mean?
    While I agree with your philosophy of 'not waiting' sir, this is flawed in any curriculum that chooses to ignore the purpose of having 'pushing' techniques in the first place. I was taught by Ed Parker to never treat pushes as punches. The two attacks are totally different, and the 'push' should never be treated as an 'anticipated assault.'

    The very nature of a 'push' suggests a person has entered your personal space with you either being unaware or not perceiving a threat. That is how a 'push' attack is partially defined in the 'Psycology of Confrontation' componant.

    A 'push' by strict definition is an action that has already occurred that you must survive before you can initiate a retaliation response. A punch may be thrown without contact, and when anticipated there are various remadies available not afforded someone that has already been 'pushed.'

    My question sir to you and everone, is what do you do and how do you recover when you don't 'see it coming?' A very real possibility that must be accounted for. A 'push' can and will break down your structure significantly, and if you do not recover, you are completely vulnerable to escalating attacks, and a 'push' is always a precursor assault event and rarely a singular act. You cannot cover a complex problem by suggesting "I will always see it coming," which is a common theme in some interpretations of self defense and kenpo. "Move first," " don't let him set," "anticipate,' are all good advice, but only when it is possible. Those are easy answers to relatively speaking easy questions. Students must be taught 'how' to answer the hard questions as well.
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    So if you were completely unsuspecting of a physical encounter, and the person pushes you from a natural stance, would you not end up falling back wards as all the weight ends up on your heels. You either stumble backwards until you catch your balance or you learn to automatically redistribute your weight another way?
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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Actually.... we usually practice to try and respond immediately to the first push. But...TBH...I hadn't really thought about it. I do believe you have a valid point though. Would you have time to react to the initial push? If you didn't expect it or feel threatened in the first place you may not be able to react. Something to play around with in class....good post!
    Same here, however it's all down to the realism behind the push i.e. is there follow up mass behind the push are they stepping forwards with it are they following through with the push because they expect you to go flying. Sureley you must be aware of the person in front of you. So how do you survive the initial attack.

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    Default Re: Realism in "Push" techniques

    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    So if you were completely unsuspecting of a physical encounter, and the person pushes you from a natural stance, would you not end up falling back wards as all the weight ends up on your heels. You either stumble backwards until you catch your balance or you learn to automatically redistribute your weight another way?
    Exactly, however even if you were aware a physical push with intent is bound to cause backward momentum and therefore you need to reset you body to be able to deal with what else is coming, push followed by punch, puch followed by attempted push etc etc

    It's how quickly you survive the initial push that determines how effective you defence is against the secondary attack.

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