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Thread: Alternating maces

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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I'm not a fan of your addition, but not because of the change itself. Rather, it seems as if it invites the practitioner to not develop the significant and profound strength and power that are available to them with practice, over time. Meaning, if they do learn to blast the other guy with everything they can muster, in sequence, he ought not be in range for the final punch as you propose it.

    Too many kenpo people (myself included, in many techniques) are guilty of using stance changes as "poses" only. Each shift ought to embody a dramatic shift in height, width, and depth, generated from stances that are transitionally rooted to the ground... a strike that comes from the ground, up, and blows out the end of the kenpo practitioners limbs, into -- and through -- the bad guy.

    That is a skill that grows with time, IF!!! (and this is a big if) they 1) know that's where they are supposed to go/grow, 2) if they have an instructor who can show them that, both incrementally and in a final product; and 3) if they put in the time on developing that power in their strikes, because they understand that development is the reason for the techniques existence.

    Alternating Maces really isn't a technique against a 2-handed push, grab, or assault. Rather, it is a technique that is meant to provide you a context for practicing the skill of generating power through alternating limbs. If you swing an axe repeatedly and at high speed with just one hand, you will have to do some thing X with your body to accommodate the intermittent, yet rapid shifts between your body parts as you switch from a "power" focus to sink the axe deeply, to a "speed" focus to draw it back out, cock it, and swing it again into another power stroke.

    On the other hand, if you are using both hands to swing two different axes at different areas on the same target, you would have to find and drill the generation of completely different types of power and speed, via how you use your body.

    In Alternating Maces, the latter has already been done for us. Start with this as your foundation: There ARE NO MINOR MOVES. The inward block doesn't clear the arms; it breaks the bones in his forearms. The vertical punch doesn't just "bend him over" as a setup for the backnuckle; it chips the xyphoid process off the bottom end of the sternum. If you thrusted that punch with enough force, generated by small changes in height, width, and depth through your shift into a FORWARD BOW, he will be in the middle of being propelled away from you by the time you rotate back into your Neutral Bow and put EVERYTHING YOU HAVE into that backnuckle.

    Basically, you will be breaking his nose, mandible, cheekbone, whatever, as he collapses toward his rear as a result of that thundering vertical thrust punch.

    I would invite you, before investing in suffixing an additional punch on the back end of the technique, to spend about an hour a day, every day for two weeks, working each of the three moves on a heavy bag, independently. Spend 20 minutes working that inward block, stepping back, lowering your weight, and turning your right side (hip, ribcage, trunk, shoulder) sharply to your left, slamming that block into a heavy bag or one of Bob's shoulders, giving every repetition everything you got. Then spend 20 minutes standing at the heavy bag in a right Neutral Bow, pivoting hard into a forward bow as you spear that vertical punch as far into the density of the bag as you can muster before the bag starts to drift away from you cuzza the punch. Then spend the remaining 20 minutes standing in a right forward bow, with your left vertical punch hand just touching the heavy bag -- hold an attitude like a runner on the starting block, waiting for the sound of the starting pistol's shot to explode into action. Then, when you are ready, turn hard into a right Neutral Bow, retracting that punch and whipping out your backnuckle. Don't just slap the bag with the back of your hand; push into the bag as hard as you can for at least 1/4 of a second after your hand makes contact, so you are developing those muscles against the resistance of the bag's weight.

    If you do this every day for two weeks, you will start to understand why the added reverse punch is unnecessary, and would only hit empty air...where the bad guy USED TO be. If, after these two weeks, you pair off with a training partner, make sure they have a kicking shield or foam armor on before launching any of this on them. I'll bet you ten bucks, if you whack them with even just 50% of the power you develop over those two weeks, you will knock them back and hurt their arms. You will also have to pull your backnuckle short of contact, so you don't break their face.

    If you like, video yourself a little bit each day, couple seconds of you on each move on a heavy bag, for two weeks. (still doing the whole hour, just sparing camera memory by taping a few seconds of each move, each day). Post them or send them so I can see them. Then do it with a partner at half-power. If you STILL don't see how unnecessary your proposed reverse punch is, I'll mail you the ten dollars. I am setting it aside, now.
    If he took you up on this offer i suspect you will be paying him the ten dollars.

    the methodology you suggest assumes that he correctly understands the rooting issues you describe, and is able to apply them.

    Without someone there with him to correct his practice, I very much doubt he would be successful.

    nice try, though.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    If he took you up on this offer i suspect you will be paying him the ten dollars.

    the methodology you suggest assumes that he correctly understands the rooting issues you describe, and is able to apply them.

    Without someone there with him to correct his practice, I very much doubt he would be successful.

    nice try, though.
    I hate to see earnest students flounder, and am willing to dedicate my time to assist the growth of even complete strangers. My significant errata was in assuming he was offering anything other than a pronouncement, affirming my most misanthropic, antisocial propensities.

    My cryptid cave is less abrasive than external interaction, and STILL I get tempted into throwing pearls before swine. I really need to just stop until specifically asked and -- apparently-- learn to tell nebulous inquiries from braggadocio.
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by Ma_student View Post
    So no counter points just a bunch of sarcastic comments. Lol I'm laughing at this so much because this was so predictable these comments.
    Seriously? you predicted my response? with or without the maniacal laughter?

    Though I notice you never responded to the questions...

    Hoppy hopp hop bunny bun....
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You can't put anything into a full vessel. Some come here to engage and exchange ideas and perhaps learn something, others come for validation of what they think they already know. Wrong forum.
    Actually you can pass light though it.. depending on the transparency of the vessel itself.. in doing so you can pass different waves of light changing the appearance of what is inside.. funny how a new appearance of a thing can change the interpretation of it no?

    Saw George Clinton couple years back.. no dreads, no fun colors.. just George.. good show.. but different show... but same songs.... interesting...

    Funky Bunny
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    I'm not a fan of your addition, but not because of the change itself. Rather, it seems as if it invites the practitioner to not develop the significant and profound strength and power that are available to them with practice, over time. Meaning, if they do learn to blast the other guy with everything they can muster, in sequence, he ought not be in range for the final punch as you propose it.
    Chances are, he won't be standing any longer.

    Too many kenpo people (myself included, in many techniques) are guilty of using stance changes as "poses" only. Each shift ought to embody a dramatic shift in height, width, and depth, generated from stances that are transitionally rooted to the ground... a strike that comes from the ground, up, and blows out the end of the kenpo practitioners limbs, into -- and through -- the bad guy.
    You are obviously talking about advanced principles of power generation here. A fascinating topic that is generally still little understood in Kenpo circles, however.

    That is a skill that grows with time, IF!!! (and this is a big if) they 1) know that's where they are supposed to go/grow, 2) if they have an instructor who can show them that, both incrementally and in a final product; and 3) if they put in the time on developing that power in their strikes, because they understand that development is the reason for the techniques existence.

    Alternating Maces really isn't a technique against a 2-handed push, grab, or assault. Rather, it is a technique that is meant to provide you a context for practicing the skill of generating power through alternating limbs.
    Likewise, every technique in the system is there to teach the practitioner something - even (or especially) the apparently goofy, non-functional ones. That's my current understanding anyway. If a given practitioner is able to grasp the lesson is another question, though.

    Of course, in a real situation, at a moment's notice, we would suffix to a technique whatever it takes to neutralize the threat. In fact, a lot of people have difficulty to appreciate that the SD techniques are not meant as exact prescriptions how to deal with specific attack scenarios. No experienced martial artist regardless of style will rely on preset patterns. There are just too many variables going on in a real-life situation for that to work.

    Even in the studio, Mr. Parker himself was constantly deviating from the textbook version of any technique. In other words, he was always operating from what is sometimes called the gaseous state - where nothing but the specifics of a given situation will determine the exact technique you are employing.

    If you swing an axe repeatedly and at high speed with just one hand, you will have to do some thing X with your body to accommodate the intermittent, yet rapid shifts between your body parts as you switch from a "power" focus to sink the axe deeply, to a "speed" focus to draw it back out, cock it, and swing it again into another power stroke.

    On the other hand, if you are using both hands to swing two different axes at different areas on the same target, you would have to find and drill the generation of completely different types of power and speed, via how you use your body.

    In Alternating Maces, the latter has already been done for us. Start with this as your foundation: There ARE NO MINOR MOVES.
    Indeed. While there are moves that may be less likely to finish the fight by themselves, they should all be done with commitment and proper body dynamics. Any move executed accordingly will at least effectively set up another move, whereas at another time it may indeed turn out to be a fight stopper in its own right.

    Intent matters: Practice with the idea that each of your moves could incapacitate an adversary, and chances are you will be developing that potential. By the same token, consider them to
    be mere distracted, and no matter how long you practice then, you will never hone them beyond that level.

    A back knuckle thrown with proper body mechanics and connecting to a vital point or target on the face would not be considered a minor move by any definition in my book. As a matter of fact, my back knuckle has been measured to be no less powerful than my straight punch.

    The inward block doesn't clear the arms; it breaks the bones in his forearms. The vertical punch doesn't just "bend him over" as a setup for the backnuckle; it chips the xyphoid process off the bottom end of the sternum. If you thrusted that punch with enough force, generated by small changes in height, width, and depth through your shift into a FORWARD BOW, he will be in the middle of being propelled away from you by the time you rotate back into your Neutral Bow and put EVERYTHING YOU HAVE into that backnuckle.

    Basically, you will be breaking his nose, mandible, cheekbone, whatever, as he collapses toward his rear as a result of that thundering vertical thrust punch.

    I would invite you, before investing in suffixing an additional punch on the back end of the technique, to spend about an hour a day, every day for two weeks, working each of the three moves on a heavy bag, independently. Spend 20 minutes working that inward block, stepping back, lowering your weight, and turning your right side (hip, ribcage, trunk, shoulder) sharply to your left, slamming that block into a heavy bag or one of Bob's shoulders, giving every repetition everything you got. Then spend 20 minutes standing at the heavy bag in a right Neutral Bow, pivoting hard into a forward bow as you spear that vertical punch as far into the density of the bag as you can muster before the bag starts to drift away from you cuzza the punch. Then spend the remaining 20 minutes standing in a right forward bow, with your left vertical punch hand just touching the heavy bag -- hold an attitude like a runner on the starting block, waiting for the sound of the starting pistol's shot to explode into action. Then, when you are ready, turn hard into a right Neutral Bow, retracting that punch and whipping out your backnuckle. Don't just slap the bag with the back of your hand; push into the bag as hard as you can for at least 1/4 of a second after your hand makes contact, so you are developing those muscles against the resistance of the bag's weight.

    If you do this every day for two weeks, you will start to understand why the added reverse punch is unnecessary, and would only hit empty air...where the bad guy USED TO be. If, after these two weeks, you pair off with a training partner, make sure they have a kicking shield or foam armor on before launching any of this on them. I'll bet you ten bucks, if you whack them with even just 50% of the power you develop over those two weeks, you will knock them back and hurt their arms. You will also have to pull your backnuckle short of contact, so you don't break their face.

    If you like, video yourself a little bit each day, couple seconds of you on each move on a heavy bag, for two weeks. (still doing the whole hour, just sparing camera memory by taping a few seconds of each move, each day). Post them or send them so I can see them. Then do it with a partner at half-power. If you STILL don't see how unnecessary your proposed reverse punch is, I'll mail you the ten dollars. I am setting it aside, now.
    I like practising the individual parts of an SD technique in isolation on my Bob in the fashion you outlined. So if I record myself doing that and post the videos , you are going to send me money?

    Or did I get something wrong?

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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Chances are, ......

    I like practising the individual parts of an SD technique in isolation on my Bob in the fashion you outlined. So if I record myself doing that and post the videos , you are going to send me money?

    Or did I get something wrong?
    Wait... I'm confused... is it $10 per video, for anyone? or is it $10 for each moment that is unrealizes when it comes to the reverse punch? IS it $10 for any realization of anything unnecessary?

    Like this post?

    Do I now get $10?

    carrots are expensive... help a bunny out..
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Greetings All,

    such a fiery debate being held... haha. I know the Speakman 5.0 guys have made a alteration of this technique, they added something off the initial two hand push. also the IKCA version of this techniques is Returning serpent but instead of a two hand push it is against a right punch.

    as long as we make the technique work for us, the essence of the art is within the elements of generating the most power within the shortest amount of time...

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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by completecombatconcepts View Post
    Greetings All,

    such a fiery debate being held... haha. I know the Speakman 5.0 guys have made a alteration of this technique, they added something off the initial two hand push. also the IKCA version of this techniques is Returning serpent but instead of a two hand push it is against a right punch.

    as long as we make the technique work for us, the essence of the art is within the elements of generating the most power within the shortest amount of time...
    See, I have no problem with modifying a technique... I have no problem with someone tagging onto it... I'm more concerned with the why of it... more important even than that.. but can you explain the why after answering it?

    this technique is good but I do this after... I do it because of this.... I see the potential of learning the very nature of bla bla through this motion and how it can benefit this other stuff by doing so...

    Otherwise all you are doing it is making a change for the sake of change and for a false sense of mastery.

    Bunny
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    See, I have no problem with modifying a technique... I have no problem with someone tagging onto it... I'm more concerned with the why of it... more important even than that.. but can you explain the why after answering it?

    this technique is good but I do this after... I do it because of this.... I see the potential of learning the very nature of bla bla through this motion and how it can benefit this other stuff by doing so...

    Otherwise all you are doing it is making a change for the sake of change and for a false sense of mastery.

    Bunny
    Exactly right. There is a reason for everything you do in an EPAK technique. Understanding why you do something is crucial, so the underlying principle can be applied to a variety of situations.

    The reasoning of the OP seems to be that a reverse punch needs to be added to Alternating Maces, since the technique as written is perceived as insufficient to stop a real-life aggressor. Well, depending on circumstances, it may or may not be. Sometimes, that vertical punch or even just the initial block may give you the opportunity to get out of the situation. Or you may be fighting against King Kong and indeed need additional ammo...

    Unlike a 'one strike, one kill' system like Shotokan, Kenpo emphasises to smoothely flow into another move whenever the situation requires it. That being said, it makes sense to keep especially the beginner's techniques short and simple - a didactic strategy highlighted by the fact that there were no extensions written for the yellow belt sequences.

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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    Exactly right. There is a reason for everything you do in an EPAK technique. Understanding why you do something is crucial, so the underlying principle can be applied to a variety of situations.

    The reasoning of the OP seems to be that a reverse punch needs to be added to Alternating Maces, since the technique as written is perceived as insufficient to stop a real-life aggressor. Well, depending on circumstances, it may or may not be. Sometimes, that vertical punch or even just the initial block may give you the opportunity to get out of the situation. Or you may be fighting against King Kong and indeed need additional ammo...

    Unlike a 'one strike, one kill' system like Shotokan, Kenpo emphasises to smoothely flow into another move whenever the situation requires it. That being said, it makes sense to keep especially the beginner's techniques short and simple - a didactic strategy highlighted by the fact that there were no extensions written for the yellow belt sequences.
    The problem I see with the mindset of AM being perceived as insufficient is in the idea that a technique.. any technique.. is to be viewed as a specific response to a specific attack. It is my opinion that the very idea of that is painfully limiting and short sighted.

    The second thing is that we still do not know where that last reverse punch is targeting. Attackers temple? Mastoid? armpit? Humerus? ribs? Liver? Quad? Top of the foot? ??? That lack of detail makes assumptions, or insinuates a lack of understanding of intention.

    Just a couple of bunny faced coppers.
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Wait... I'm confused... is it $10 per video, for anyone? or is it $10 for each moment that is unrealizes when it comes to the reverse punch? IS it $10 for any realization of anything unnecessary?

    Like this post?

    Do I now get $10?

    carrots are expensive... help a bunny out..
    Given our dear doctor's charitable nature, I am sure the exact conditions and amount are negotiable.

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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    The problem I see with the mindset of AM being perceived as insufficient is in the idea that a technique.. any technique.. is to be viewed as a specific response to a specific attack. It is my opinion that the very idea of that is painfully limiting and short sighted.
    I agree. Instead, I look at a technique as a kind of (two-man) mini form that has many potential applications.

    The second thing is that we still do not know where that last reverse punch is targeting. Attackers temple? Mastoid? armpit? Humerus? ribs? Liver? Quad? Top of the foot? ??? That lack of detail makes assumptions, or insinuates a lack of understanding of intention.
    The underlying assumption seems to be that a reverse punch is a powerful and therefore effective technique, whereas, e.g., a back knuckle is not. This belief is most likely based on more of a 'tournament' approach to fighting, with the rules and limitations this implies. When indeed from a traditional combat oriented view, strikes (uchi-waza) are generally considered more devastating than punches (tsuki-waza) - in regards not only to their respective methods of power generation employed, but also to the their common targets.

    My conclusion is supported not only by the OP's own mentioning of his MA background, but also by his preference of Mr. Speakman's particular adaptation of Parker Kenpo with its added BBJ moves and other elements that set it in line with more of the contemporary sportive approach.

    Some (although not all) representatives of the latter show scant respect for the old ways which they consider awkward and obsolete.

    Just a couple of bunny faced coppers.
    Hope my dragon faced dines are acceptable as change...

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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    I agree. Instead, I look at a technique as a kind of (two-man) mini form that has many potential applications.

    The underlying assumption seems to be that a reverse punch is a powerful and therefore effective technique, whereas, e.g., a back knuckle is not. This belief is most likely based on more of a 'tournament' approach to fighting, with the rules and limitations this implies. When indeed from a traditional combat oriented view, strikes (uchi-waza) are generally considered more devastating than punches (tsuki-waza) - in regards not only to their respective methods of power generation employed, but also to the their common targets.

    My conclusion is supported not only by the OP's own mentioning of his MA background, but also by his preference of Mr. Speakman's particular adaptation of Parker Kenpo with its added BBJ moves and other elements that set it in line with more of the contemporary sportive approach.

    Some (although not all) representatives of the latter show scant respect for the old ways which they consider awkward and obsolete.

    Hope my dragon faced dines are acceptable as change...
    I'm a fan of change so it's all good.

    Yea, I have run into a lot of the "Well you can't generate power that way.." which usually results in a response of.. "Well.. maybe you can't.. here let me show you how I can......"

    Silly humans..

    Bubun
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Stone Dragon, you wrote, "The underlying assumption seems to be that a reverse punch is a powerful and therefore effective technique, whereas, e.g., a back knuckle is not. This belief is most likely based on more of a 'tournament' approach to fighting, with the rules and limitations this implies. When indeed from a traditional combat oriented view, strikes (uchi-waza) are generally considered more devastating than punches (tsuki-waza) - in regards not only to their respective methods of power generation employed, but also to the their common targets."

    And it reminded me about a story from the early days of kenpo in tournaments. IIRC, it involved Steve LaBounty fighting in a traditional hard-style tournament, because they were the only thing around.

    He kept scoring with a backnuckle, but the judge wouldn't call it. He asked why, and the ref said in a thick accent, "No power." The zeitgeist was that only rear-hand straight punches had enough power to matter. So Mr. LaB starts hitting his opponent harder, and harder, and harder with his lead hand, always being admonished for his technique having "No power." In a moment of frustration, he hits the other guy hard enough to knock him out. He looks to the ref for a call for a point, clearly challenging his assumptions, and the ref steel-eyes him and says, "No power."

    While I have never successfully broken a thick thighbone with a backnuckle, I have broken people's noses, cheekbones, and jaws with it....albeit, never all three at the same time, as the OP misinterpreted. I have also dummied for Mr. Parker and a few other OKG's, and have ZEEERRROOOO!!! doubt he/they could wreck whatever part of me they hit. That's my goal: Break whatever I hit, including his arms with blocks.

    Funny story -- OP boy says bones in the arms can't be broken with blocks. I was tasked with being the driver for a guy who was pretty up there in kenpo, kajukenbo, and limalama. At one location, he engaged one gentleman who showed the bad judgement of reaching for him. You know that first move in Snapping Twig? He did it to the guy, but missed the elbow as the dude was pulling his hand back to his own space. It broke both bones in the forearm.

    Whatsisname has the right to be wrong. Glad to see him exercise it so well.
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by Star Dragon View Post
    You are obviously talking about advanced principles of power generation here. A fascinating topic that is generally still little understood in Kenpo circles, however.
    Been thinking about this statement and I gotta say I disagree. What he is saying is not an advanced principle. This is fundamental stuff, that ought to be part of the instruction from the very beginning. Without understanding this, and without a comprehensive methodology for developing it in a way that can be applied universally, much of what is found in the techniques lacks teeth. You would be limited to reliance on your raw physical strength, which can be effective if you possess that strength, but will always come up short compared to what you could be achieving. As you age and you lose that strength and athleticism, you lose your effectiveness much more quickly if you never grasped what Dave is talking about.

    if your school is not teaching this, or treats it as advanced stuff that the beginners aren’t privy to, then the school is lacking something very important.

    Learning this first (and always working to make it better, it should be a constant part of practice; you never move past it) and then applying it to the Techs as you then learn them, is the way to deal with it. Learning the Techs first and believing that you can learn how to develop power later, and go back and apply them to the Techs, just never plays out. People want to believe they will do it. It rarely happens.

    if anything is missing from a martial arts school, kenpo or otherwise, I believe this is one of the biggest and most frequent.
    Michael


    de gustibus non disputante est.
    Negative Douche Bag Number One

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  26. #36
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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Quote Originally Posted by flying crane View Post
    Been thinking about this statement and I gotta say I disagree. What he is saying is not an advanced principle. This is fundamental stuff, that ought to be part of the instruction from the very beginning. Without understanding this, and without a comprehensive methodology for developing it in a way that can be applied universally, much of what is found in the techniques lacks teeth. You would be limited to reliance on your raw physical strength, which can be effective if you possess that strength, but will always come up short compared to what you could be achieving. As you age and you lose that strength and athleticism, you lose your effectiveness much more quickly if you never grasped what Dave is talking about.

    if your school is not teaching this, or treats it as advanced stuff that the beginners aren’t privy to, then the school is lacking something very important.

    Learning this first (and always working to make it better, it should be a constant part of practice; you never move past it) and then applying it to the Techs as you then learn them, is the way to deal with it. Learning the Techs first and believing that you can learn how to develop power later, and go back and apply them to the Techs, just never plays out. People want to believe they will do it. It rarely happens.

    if anything is missing from a martial arts school, kenpo or otherwise, I believe this is one of the biggest and most frequent.
    Oh I certainly agree to that. It's indeed just in reference to those numerous instructors who are woefully unaware of aforementioned principles that the latter would appear as 'advanced'. Maybe 'sophisticated' would have been a better term, though? I am not a native English speaker, you know...

    That being said, there are different levels of sophistication, and strictly speaking, I wasn't simply responding to what Dr. Dave shared in his recent post, but had in mind some earlier exchanges with him as well. I may be able to retrieve the respective threads if anybody cares... For now, let me assure you, what we were going into there, that was indeed not Kansas anymore.

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    Default Re: Alternating maces

    Ive seen and done backknucles that have stopped folks in their tracks. It's all about the target you choose and the weapon in this case a snapping backnuckle will stop a man in his tracks in your tsrget is the bridge of the nose or the temple on each side of the head
    Think about a serpent strike to get the right idea.

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