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Thread: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

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    Default Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    MLKKA brought this up and I don't know the difference. If someone is attacking me with a knife, it's self-defense. How is combat different?

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Curious if we're talking method of attack or type of knives.

    Check out this info from wikipedia when looking into combat knives. Yowza.

    Combatives is a term used by the US Army to describe various hybrid martial arts, which incorporate techniques from several different martial arts and combat sports. Unlike combat sports, such systems usually have limited sport application and often focus on simple techniques for use in self-defense or combat.


    Silent Kill Technique

    It is a common myth that cutting somebody's throat with a knife is a stealthy alternative to using firearms. The opponent is more likely to gurgle and thrash around for some period of time until the brain's oxygen supply runs out, usually creating noise in the process. A better alternative is to aim the knife upwards at the indent at the base of the skull (where the bone is thin) at an angle of forty-five degrees and to thrust it towards the brain, scrambling the medulla oblongata, cutting off motor control immediately.
    -Camey

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    That makes me want to throw up.

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Indeed.
    and...
    Attached Images Attached Images
    -Camey

    "You mean, you'll put down your rock and I'll put down my sword, and we'll try and kill each other like civilized people? "

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Most of that stuff is easy to break or tear on a person. If we are dealing with knife you deal with cutting nerves and if you really have no other choice arteries.

    So maybe there are two differnet mind frames when dealing with SD techniques and knife fighting. With the knife you need to know nevers and arteries but with techniques you just need to know how to break bones . Either way you have to know exactly what you are doing.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    IMO here is the difference.

    For Self Defense, your goal is to survive a knife encouter. Plain and simple. Whether that's by running (preferred!), disarming the attacker, severly injuring the attacker etc. Once disarmed AND under control, from a self defense perspective, its not morally (in my opinion), or legally (not opinion!), right to use the knife on your attacker. (to cut/disable/or kill them) Note I say under control. You may have someone who is still struggling, trying to get the knife from you, reaching or trying to find another weapon. All of these scenarios may require you to cut your attacker to subdue them. MAYBE. Again it really will vary by situation, but a death blow would probably not ever be acceptable.

    In combat, meaning, war, etc., the goal would be to kill your adversary. Pure and simple. So if we're talking about unarmed vs. a knife, once you disarm him/her (if you do), then you go for the killing strike. In modern society I can't think of many scenarios where this would be acceptable.

    Again these are guidelines, no situation will be the same. God willing none of us will have to get into an encounter like this, but one thing I always keep in mind, regardless of religion, is that life is sacred and I'd only take it in the most most extreme of circumstances.

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by jeff5
    IMO here is the difference.


    In modern society I can't think of many scenarios where this would be acceptable.
    So you're saying that taking my parking place doesn't qualify? Dang it. I should've read this earlier. Ummm. You all will attest that I've been here all morning, right?

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    It's a common misconception (you can probably blame the movies and TV for it) that one can die instantly from a knife stab. It's a bunch'a hooey!

    Most people die from blood loss...or shock..and that takes a while. So if you're planning on taking somebody out with a knife and want to make sure they die, prepare to be occupied for a little while as they thrash about gurgling and moaning in agony.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    It's a common misconception (you can probably blame the movies and TV for it) that one can die instantly from a knife stab. It's a bunch'a hooey!

    Most people die from blood loss...or shock..and that takes a while. So if you're planning on taking somebody out with a knife and want to make sure they die, prepare to be occupied for a little while as they thrash about gurgling and moaning in agony.
    And maybe gushing LOL
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    ..yah...better bring lots of towels and trash bags. EWWWWWWW.

    That reminds me...when I hand the "do not disturb" sign out when in a hotel, and the maids still knock and wake me up...I use that opportunity to have a little fun.

    When they knock and shout "Maid service! Do you need anything?!" through the door, I jump up..grab a couple of catsup packs from the room service I got the nite before...squirt them all over me...fling the door open and announce "Yeah! I need some towels...quick" then I take a quick glance back into the room and add, "....and a couple of trash bags!"
    They usually don't bother me much after that.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    I understand that a knife wound to the large artery in the inner thigh will make someone bleed out pretty quickly.

    Is that true, as far as youall know?

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    I understand that a knife wound to the large artery in the inner thigh will make someone bleed out pretty quickly.

    Is that true, as far as youall know?

    --Amy
    When you cut the femoral artery it shoots up into the pelvis and you actually have to go in and pull it back down before they bleed out.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate
    When you cut the femoral artery it shoots up into the pelvis and you actually have to go in and pull it back down before they bleed out.
    That's not what happened on the Hannibal Lector movie and we know that movies tell the truth in all things.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong
    MLKKA brought this up and I don't know the difference. If someone is attacking me with a knife, it's self-defense. How is combat different?
    I'd say it is just semantics. Self defense might imply you were minding your own business, or unarmed, and an armed opponent engaged you in combat. Pure combat might mean that engagement is mutual. Either way, you are fighting for your life.

    I've heard that cutting a persons throat will cause gurgling, but I've never tried it for myself. There are knife strikes that will drop an opponent quickly (again, I have to take the word of "experts") and techniques to do it silently (if silence is the goal, you have to stop him crying out, kill or disable silently, and control his fall and any equipment he's carrying). It's probably not going to happen quietly if you face off and go at it with knives. Besides, apart from the military (real combat and the source of many of my experts), you probably want to make a lot of noise and get lots of attention. You have a better chance if someone can at least call an ambulance.

    The strike at the base of the skull- there is a hole in your skull about the size of your fist (called the foramen magnum) that the spine enters through. At the top of the spine is the medula oblongata.Around this are some other neuro structures with strange names (like the Circle of Willis). But they aren't very big. If you have knife someone here, Stab straight for the top of the spine, then rock the blade side to side.

    This is really a morbid topic. What else are they teaching you at seminary?

    (Just kidding... put that away!)

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate
    When you cut the femoral artery it shoots up into the pelvis and you actually have to go in and pull it back down before they bleed out.
    That's not what happened to that NY bouncer who got stabbed "in an artery near the groin" by a guy who knew what he was doing with a knife. The papers said he "died in the hospital later that day," but that just means he was pronounced there. Survival rates at modern ERs are pretty high for knife wounds, I'm betting the guy was effectively dead by the time the paramedics picked him up. The guy who did the stabbing described himself as "being covered in blood."

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    It's a common misconception (you can probably blame the movies and TV for it) that one can die instantly from a knife stab. It's a bunch'a hooey!

    Most people die from blood loss...or shock..and that takes a while. So if you're planning on taking somebody out with a knife and want to make sure they die, prepare to be occupied for a little while as they thrash about gurgling and moaning in agony.
    I always chuckle when in a movie someone gets stabbed in the gut and they immediately die. Especially when the stabbing is done by the good guy who has endured two gunshots, a 40 foot fall, 3 knife wounds and a beating.
    As most of us have probably heard, many times in a fight someone who is stabbed wont even realize it. If they are unaware of the knife which is often the case, they may just think they were struck. Then when the adrenaline dies down and they see blood they realize it was a stab.
    On a related note sometimes a superficial slash can be more effective in ending a fight than a life threatening stab. The psychological impact of realizing you have been cut will take the fight right out of some people. Then there are others who will go into blind rage when they see they are cut so you just never know.
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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Good heavens! <cringe cringe>
    Quote Originally Posted by thedan

    ...Stab straight for the top of the spine, then rock the blade side to side.
    -Camey

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Tigerstripes
    On a related note sometimes a superficial slash can be more effective in ending a fight than a life threatening stab. The psychological impact of realizing you have been cut will take the fight right out of some people. Then there are others who will go into blind rage when they see they are cut so you just never know.
    There is a cut in German Schlager dueling where you cut across the forehead that is designed as a fight ender because the guy has deal with all that blood running down into his eyes, the cut isn't very dangerous at all, but makes the fight hard to continue, especially when the other guy has a sharp and pointy object.

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Stab straight for the top of the spine, then rock the blade side to side.
    Quote Originally Posted by cameypsaromatis
    Good heavens! <cringe cringe>
    Well, it isn't the nicest topic on these boards.

    If you should have the misfortune to have to put a knife into someone, I've been told that you generally should not just pull it back out. Twist it, rock it, hook it, etc. For the strike we were discussing, when you get the target he'll immediately collapse and die. If you don't get the target, which is about the size of your little finger and moves and twists as he moves, you may be in for a very unpleasant experience- even if/as he's dieing. I have dealt with head injuries, and they can be extremely dangerouse, even without weapons.

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    Default Re: Knives - Combat vs. Self-Defense

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    It's a common misconception (you can probably blame the movies and TV for it) that one can die instantly from a knife stab. It's a bunch'a hooey!

    Most people die from blood loss...or shock..and that takes a while. So if you're planning on taking somebody out with a knife and want to make sure they die, prepare to be occupied for a little while as they thrash about gurgling and moaning in agony.
    It depends on what you mean by instantly. Sever the aorta and death is very fast, big knife through both carotids - fast, Sever the upper cord -fast. all of these are difficult and unlikely. Most knife deaths are slow and gorey. Avoid knife fights.

    Jeff

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