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Thread: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

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    Default Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Hey guys...
    I was just curious, do yíall believe that itís possible to unite Kenpo? I believe it would be most beneficial if the Kenpo community could figure out how to compete collectively against the other martial arts. It would have to be done in a way that there was no grand poombah, (so the other grand poombahís donít get threatened), no costs (so others arenít threatened that theyíre loosing $), etc... Is that possible? How would that look? Where would you start?
    I think itís important to note, Iím not the man for the job... Iím just hopeful this might inspire one who is.

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    This is an interesting idea. Perhaps if there could be some sort of central location for gatherings and storing information. Such a place would have to be neutral space ( not belonging to any organization but maintained by all). Also any organization that hoped to unify kenpo could not offer any sort of rank certification. Perhaps looking at the way the Kukikwon(s) does things would be helpful in figuring out what is both good and bad to do. Of course not everyone would be interested in such an organization.

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    No.

    nor is there any need to.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Hey guys...
    I was just curious, do yíall believe that itís possible to unite Kenpo? I believe it would be most beneficial if the Kenpo community could figure out how to compete collectively against the other martial arts. It would have to be done in a way that there was no grand poombah, (so the other grand poombahís donít get threatened), no costs (so others arenít threatened that theyíre loosing $), etc... Is that possible? How would that look? Where would you start?
    I think itís important to note, Iím not the man for the job... Iím just hopeful this might inspire one who is.
    There are prophecies of a great rabbit that will come forth one day to bring balance to the force...

    But, other than that, no. Itís not going to happen.
    Don't only practice your art, but force your way into its secrets, for it and knowledge can raise men to the divine.
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    Ludwig van Beethoven

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Hey guys...
    I was just curious, do y’all believe that it’s possible to unite Kenpo? I believe it would be most beneficial if the Kenpo community could figure out how to compete collectively against the other martial arts.
    I personally don’t see a need for a sense of “competition” against other systems. The way I see it, either the system has value or it does not and you choose to do it or not, based on your perception of the value. And it does not need to be the only system that has value. It is not a zero-sum game. It just needs to be a method to which you can relate, and that makes sense to you as a methodology, coupled with quality instruction. I don’t see a need to compare that value against other systems. It’s value should stand on its own feet and be readily apparent.

    kenpo itself, even if we limit it to only those systems that came from the Ed Parker lineage, is not one system. It is many different systems itself and differs depending on when and how it branched away from Mr. Parker. Some branched earlier (Tracy, for example), others branched later and didn’t make a deliberate move in their own direction until after Mr. Parker’s death. Some of the leaders of these branches trained with Mr. Parker during earlier or later eras, and that has a very direct effect on their own curriculae and methods. Some of these leaders were never direct students of Mr. Parker, and trained under a student of a student of a student of...Mr. Parker. It is a mistake to lump all Parker-derived kenpo together. The different lineages really are different systems and there is no singular kenpo. There is no “one style” to unify.

    It would have to be done in a way that there was no grand poombah, (so the other grand poombah’s don’t get threatened), no costs (so others aren’t threatened that they’re loosing $), etc... Is that possible? How would that look? Where would you start?
    I think it’s important to note, I’m not the man for the job... I’m just hopeful this might inspire one who is.
    So how do you bring together the various leaders of what are in reality very different systems, and get them to somehow standardize everything into one uniform system? I don’t even understand why anyone might wish to do that. I’ll hazard a guess that most of these people who might sit on this committee probably have busy lives and better ways to spend their time and energies than to chase a phantom like kenpo unity.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    There are prophecies of a great rabbit that will come forth one day to bring balance to the force...

    But, other than that, no. It’s not going to happen.

    Don't hold your breath, anyway.



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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Hey guys...
    I was just curious, do y’all believe that it’s possible to unite Kenpo?
    in my view, the issue is that many different people have taken Kenpo in so many different directions, based on their personal background and inclinations. And they indeed did this with Mr. Parker's blessing, who regarded his Kenpo system as more of an open framework than as a rigorously defined style. Thus, some Kenpoists are quite happy with doing things by (what they consider to be) the book, while others re-designed their individual expression of the art more with contemporary streetfighting in mind, others again with an eye on 'internal' methods of power generation etc., which is fine. Paradoxically, at some stage, many become totally convinced of the universal superiority of their own personal way and are rather dogmatic about it. It is very common to hear instructors bitch about other instructors, and there is a lot of ego out there. Few truly appreciate Mr. Parker's innovative approach of offering an outline that leaves plenty of leeway for personal development and, according to some, may have served as the model for Bruce Lee's philosophy "Absorb what is useful, discard, what is useless, add what is uniquely your own". And still fewer are in a position to offer guidance to students seeking the way that works best for them personally.

    Oddly enough, it may actually be a lot easier to found an organization that would unite many different styles of Kenpo (i.e. EPKK, Kosho-ryu, Kara-ho, Shaolin-Kempo, Kajukenbo etc.) under one roof rather than just the various branches of Parker Kenpo.

    I believe it would be most beneficial if the Kenpo community could figure out how to compete collectively against the other martial arts.
    I too don't see a particular need to 'compete' with other martial arts. That being said, I do resonate with your statement insofar I believe there is a widespread misperception of Kenpo as outdated and ineffective in comparison to other arts such as BJJ, Krav Maga, Systema etc., which seem to be all the rave. I am convinced that Kenpo is second to none especially in regards to self-defence effectiveness. At least potentially. Although it must be said that, in practice, the system's respective value will vary depending on the knowledge of and approach taken by the its instructors.

    It would have to be done in a way that there was no grand poombah, (so the other grand poombah’s don’t get threatened), no costs (so others aren’t threatened that they’re loosing $), etc... Is that possible? How would that look? Where would you start?
    I think it’s important to note, I’m not the man for the job... I’m just hopeful this might inspire one who is.
    I think this could be successfully initiated only by someone with extensive knowledge not only of Kenpo but of martial arts in general - and on top of that, with a really broad vision for the future! Will such a 'messiah' show up one day in Kenpo land? Only time will tell.

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Hey guys...
    I was just curious, do y’all believe that it’s possible to unite Kenpo? I believe it would be most beneficial if the Kenpo community could figure out how to compete collectively against the other martial arts. It would have to be done in a way that there was no grand poombah, (so the other grand poombah’s don’t get threatened), no costs (so others aren’t threatened that they’re loosing $), etc... Is that possible? How would that look? Where would you start?
    I think it’s important to note, I’m not the man for the job... I’m just hopeful this might inspire one who is.
    Interesting, but your premise suggests putting back together something that was never together in the first place, therefore the question is moot. Even more traditional styles that were actually together at one time have fractured into different camps. It is the nature of man to want to take their own path, for better or worse. Kenpo, no matter the iteration has always been fractured in its many interpretations, and even within its own designations are variations based on its many principles that encourage personal tailoring by deleting, adding, subtracting, rearranging, and overall interpreting what they do as they see fit. This is because much of Kenpo is a training concept, not a strict style like the traditionalist. Train as you like and whatever the results is YOUR Kenpo, utilizing the named version as a very loose guide, not a template.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    The nature of entropy is that not only does the vase shatter, the pieces spread ever further apart...

    And yet, since so much of Kenpo is an open-ended training concept, I would think that it would make it easier in some ways to come together. Maybe not under the banner of one traditional organization, but as a group of associated like-minded martial artists. Might actually work if money, politics, and rank-chasing didnít exist.
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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    There are prophecies of a great rabbit that will come forth one day to bring balance to the force...

    But, other than that, no. It’s not going to happen.
    Stand and observe!!!!

    That I

    Am not that bunny!!!!

    I will however point out that perhaps, as the art of Kenpo grows and expands, and changes... Kenpo is exactly as it should be, not unified, constantly growing, lets us then get together as we can, try things out, keep what works, remove what does not and move on from there.

    LEts stay broken.

    Bunbun
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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    The nature of entropy is that not only does the vase shatter, the pieces spread ever further apart...

    And yet, since so much of Kenpo is an open-ended training concept, I would think that it would make it easier in some ways to come together. Maybe not under the banner of one traditional organization, but as a group of associated like-minded martial artists. Might actually work if money, politics, and rank-chasing didn’t exist.
    True, Entropy does increase, in a closed system....

    We however are not a closed system, we are powered by those who practice the art.. so Entropy will decrease.. lest it should. Bunners
    "Do you have any bactine? Some of this blood is mine."

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    True, Entropy does increase, in a closed system....

    We however are not a closed system, we are powered by those who practice the art.. so Entropy will decrease.. lest it should. Bunners
    Why are we not a closed system? Unless you donít think that Kenpo is a system at all ó that it is just a conceptual vehicle. Then again, I donít think that is the type of system you are talking about. The second law of thermodynamics is probably better applied to something other then martial arts organizations anyway. The basic premise remains, though, that if something is broken, it doesnít typically fix itself. You need something or someone from outside to come in and make that happen. I mean some bunnyís got to do it, right?
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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    Why are we not a closed system? Unless you donít think that Kenpo is a system at all ó that it is just a conceptual vehicle. Then again, I donít think that is the type of system you are talking about. The second law of thermodynamics is probably better applied to something other then martial arts organizations anyway. The basic premise remains, though, that if something is broken, it doesnít typically fix itself. You need something or someone from outside to come in and make that happen. I mean some bunnyís got to do it, right?
    Sorry, I should have clarified. The reference to "Closed system" was for the topic of Entropy and Thermodynamics. In a closed system, according to the 2nd law, Entropy will increase. But, we are not in a closed system, we are powered by the sun, living beings, active and part of the subject. So as an open system (2nd law) Entropy will decrees.

    Example.. in a closed system dropping an egg will naturally move from order to disorder.. but add heat and order to disorder back to order by cooking the egg.

    Bunbun
    Last edited by MrBunny; 09-06-2018 at 10:48 AM. Reason: 2nd law.. you're right...
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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny View Post
    Sorry, I should have clarified. The reference to "Closed system" was for the topic of Entropy and Thermodynamics. In a closed system, according to the 2nd law, Entropy will increase. But, we are not in a closed system, we are powered by the sun, living beings, active and part of the subject. So as an open system (2nd law) Entropy will decrees.

    Example.. in a closed system dropping an egg will naturally move from order to disorder.. but add heat and order to disorder back to order by cooking the egg.

    Bunbun
    As far as Kenpo being a system.... .... ....... ......

    I think it would be more accurate to say that a system is required for the organized instruction of the concepts taught within Kenpo. You really break it down and what do we learn/teach.. punch, kick, elbow... manipulation... all things found within different arts with subtle variation.

    So is Kenpo a system or does the study of Kenpo employ a system?

    Bunners
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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoMD View Post
    Why are we not a closed system? Unless you don’t think that Kenpo is a system at all — that it is just a conceptual vehicle. Then again, I don’t think that is the type of system you are talking about. The second law of thermodynamics is probably better applied to something other then martial arts organizations anyway. The basic premise remains, though, that if something is broken, it doesn’t typically fix itself. You need something or someone from outside to come in and make that happen. I mean some bunny’s got to do it, right?
    i guess that explains why the dry rot on my house is still there.
    Michael


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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Brett View Post
    Hey guys...

    I was just curious, do yíall believe that itís possible to unite Kenpo?

    Is that possible? How would that look? Where would you start?
    There is actually an organization that is already working to united kenpo, it is the same organization Mr. Parker began, the International Kenpo Karate Association.

    I recently counted the number of schools in the US that have joined, they list 56 on their website.

    KAM IV Inc.

    I should have counted how many schools there were a year ago, it would be interesting to see how much it has grown. I'll so a new count every few months from here on out.

    So the solution is already out there for those who want to join and work towards it.

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crouching Tiger View Post
    There is actually an organization that is already working to united kenpo, it is the same organization Mr. Parker began, the International Kenpo Karate Association.

    I recently counted the number of schools in the US that have joined, they list 56 on their website.

    KAM IV Inc.

    I should have counted how many schools there were a year ago, it would be interesting to see how much it has grown. I'll so a new count every few months from here on out.

    So the solution is already out there for those who want to join and work towards it.
    I don’t have a dog in the race, but I’ll ask: what makes you feel that they are the right people for the job? Why would they do a good job, and why should others go along with their program?
    Michael


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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Well, I think they are the ones best positioned to carry a Mr. Parker kenpo organization forward simply because they have history on their side.

    (I would have to add to that of course that not all kenpo is Parker kenpo. And so when I talk about kenpo organizations I am only referring to Ed Parker kenpo, not Nick Cerio kenpo, or Tracy's Karate, or United Studios of Self Defense, etc. Also, I have to say that there are some Parker first generation black belts that are doing just fine at running their own organizations. And I think they should continue that if they want, they have done it for years.)

    But when I look to the future, say 20 years down the road, how many first generation Parker black belts are going to be around? How many of their organizations are going to be around?

    I do believe however that the IKKA will still be around, like I said before, simply because they have history on their side. (And they legally have all of Mr. Parker's intellectual property.)

    And if there is a school out there that wants to be a part of an organization and the benefits that come with it, whatever those benefits might be, the IKKA is going to be the organization to join.

    When it comes to who is running it, I actually don't know other than the daughters of Mr. Parker. Now, some will say that is a joke because none of them practice kenpo. But you could also say it is a good thing because they wouldn't need to worry about the art itself, but rather just the logistics of running the organization.
    Last edited by Crouching Tiger; 09-15-2018 at 03:42 PM.

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Sorry, I feel like I need to clarify my above post.

    I don't feel "kenpo" as a whole needs or can be unified. Kenpo is a broad term that describes a martial art with many branches.

    My earlier post about the IKKA was obviously referring to just Mr. Parker's branch of kenpo, a very important branch, but just one branch when all is said and done.

    I think it is wonderful that kenpo has many different versions, such as Nick Cerio's, Ralph Castro's and many many others.

    Thanks, and sorry for getting off topic and into the weeds by talking about the IKKA.

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    Default Re: Is it possible to fix a shattered vase? (Is it possible to unite Kenpo?)

    Quote Originally Posted by Crouching Tiger View Post
    Well, I think they are the ones best positioned to carry a Mr. Parker kenpo organization forward simply because they have history on their side.

    (I would have to add to that of course that not all kenpo is Parker kenpo. And so when I talk about kenpo organizations I am only referring to Ed Parker kenpo, not Nick Cerio kenpo, or Tracy's Karate, or United Studios of Self Defense, etc. Also, I have to say that there are some Parker first generation black belts that are doing just fine at running their own organizations. And I think they should continue that if they want, they have done it for years.)

    But when I look to the future, say 20 years down the road, how many first generation Parker black belts are going to be around? How many of their organizations are going to be around?

    I do believe however that the IKKA will still be around, like I said before, simply because they have history on their side. (And they legally have all of Mr. Parker's intellectual property.)

    And if there is a school out there that wants to be a part of an organization and the benefits that come with it, whatever those benefits might be, the IKKA is going to be the organization to join.

    When it comes to who is running it, I actually don't know other than the daughters of Mr. Parker. Now, some will say that is a joke because none of them practice kenpo. But you could also say it is a good thing because they wouldn't need to worry about the art itself, but rather just the logistics of running the organization.
    I looked at their website, I see an intellectual property issue and licensing, but nothing about training methods, curriculum, standards, etc. it looks to me like someone who wants control over the name and the finances connected to that, but nothing to do with actually training the method

    i don’t see anything in that to suggest any kind of unification in that.
    Michael


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