EPAK Knife Defenses?

[cameypsaromatis]

After reviewing the thread Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses, and having been in a disucssion with a certain British friend of mine, I wanted to bring up the subject of knife attacks. It seems to me that the knife defenses that we learn in our system are only applicable in the event that we are dealing w/ an attacker who is not skilled with a knife. They are still valid defenses, but I believe that there is a lot more to understanding how to defend against someone coming at you with a knife that knows how to use it.

Personally, if someone is threatenting me with a knife, I'm going to avoid being close to the weapon. I'm not going to go for the hand holding the knife. I'm going to try to stay in range of the body engough to take bites of him or her.... take out their base if possible and perhaps their ability to reproduce. I just think that knives are serious business and as with anything their dangerousness increases with the skill of the person holding it.

I am certainly glad that in my training I have learned defenses against them have some level of confidence with them, however, if I was in a bad area in Miami... I'd be pulling confidence out of my Lord and Savior and would hope to stay safe by using my legs/kicks to take out the threat - because at least my legs are longer than a normal person's arms.

[kenpotex]

I agree that our knife defenses are a litte "optimistic." From what I've heard about, and in one case, personally seen; most knife wielding attackers are not going to lunge at you and be obliging enough to leave their arm there for you to parry/grab/trap/whatever. Most attacks will probably be either a rapid-fire prison-style "shanking" or someone who just slashes wildly at you (which is what happened to a co-worker of mine).

If I was faced with a knife I'd want something that would give me the ability to strike from farther away than he can (a gun would be nice)--a chair, pool-cue, whatever, just something to keep me from having to engage either knife vs. knife or empty-hand vs. knife.

As I mentioned in the other weapons thread, we recently added a basic knife defense to our yellow-belt list. For those who may not have seen that thread, the basic technique is to obtain a 2-on-1 hold on the attacker's knife hand/wrist and HANG ON! At this point, throw knees and kicks to the groin, knees, and shins until he drops the knife. I also like head-butts in this situation. From here, if you've softened him up or distracted him enough to give up the 2-on-1, you can throw some hand strikes or elbows or go to an arm-bar, armpit trap, or a takedown. Or, just run.

[Seabrook]

I thought the same way about a couple of our knife defenses, but Larry Tatum proved me wrong last fall at a camp. He went through each of the knife techniques with me (and on me, OUCH!) and made a believer out of me, by showing me how well each of the knife techniques work, even against someone with significant knife skills.

Having done a fair amount of knife work over the years, as I also have a black belt in Modern Arnis under Remy Presas, I can say that all of our Kenpo knife defenses work great.

[Blindside]

Personally, if someone is threatenting me with a knife, I'm going to avoid being close to the weapon. I'm not going to go for the hand holding the knife. I'm going to try to stay in range of the body engough to take bites of him or her.... take out their base if possible and perhaps their ability to reproduce. I just think that knives are serious business and as with anything their dangerousness increases with the skill of the person holding it.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend this strategy, the knife is a close in weapon and the opponent will absolutely be trying to close. Your footwork would have to be absolutely amazing to avoid a determined closer, and the minute you kick, one of your feet is off the ground and limiting your mobility. You need the skills to deal with the weapon at close range, because that is where the good knifer is going to take you.

My biggest question is the lack of official techniques against a slashing knife, but thats just me.

Lamont

[cameypsaromatis]

True. Anytime one foot leaves the ground you lose stability. Unless you disable the threat and you're able to regain yourself it's never a good idea. I definitely feel that I need to train in some new ways to get a better grip on defending this kind of an attack.

Jamie, I would love to hear more about what you have learned from Larry on this and also what information you can bring to light having studied in Arnis.

[Seabrook]

Okay.

Let's start with an analysis of Glancing Lance.

Can everyone please give me their thoughts on this technique? Why do you think it works? Are there any problems that you forsee with this technique?

[cameypsaromatis]

Well as I initially learned it... you snake under the wrist with your right as you step back to 7, but I saw Tatum do this with a right handsword to the wrist. I preferred his way greatly.

[Miyu]

I also train in Arnis and have found it a great supplement to my kenpo. I think its given me better confidence going into a weapon situation than what I had learned in kenpo.

But then again the kenpo school I was at didn't deal with weapons much - a bit of a disapointment to me, because it was treated almost as an afterthought there.

[cameypsaromatis]

Initially, I kept getting stabbed OVER AND OVER AND OVER. Until I switched and started doing the handsword as Larry did.

Okay.

Let's start with an analysis of Glancing Lance.

Can everyone please give me their thoughts on this technique? Why do you think it works? Are there any problems that you forsee with this technique?

[Seabrook]

Okay. I agree with the right hand chop.

What else?

Let's here from everyone their thoughts on this technique.

Do you like it as a viable and effective technique for a knife defense? Why or why not?

[cameypsaromatis]

Well since I'm the only one really participating right now...
I don't have any experience with real life knife situations and haven't trained with anyone who has, but I feel like the way it is designed in the technique it is more geared to someone making a committed stab and not what I "hear" a lot about - RECOIL. How do any of them take recoiling into consideration and the angle in which the blade is coming back? You have to be 'johnny on the spot' with your attack and disable it pretty quickly somehow.

Okay. I agree with the right hand chop.

What else?

Let's here from everyone their thoughts on this technique.

Do you like it as a viable and effective technique for a knife defense? Why or why not?

[amylong]

I think all the knife techniques are scary. It seems as though if someone is aiming a knife your way, you're going to get cut. At some point.

I don't have confidence that I'm going to be able to get out of the way, pull and kick before they pull back and slice arm.

Maybe somebody at an upcoming camp will do knife attacks with us. (hint hint)

--Amy

[Seabrook]

Ah, cool.

Okay, Camey.

So here's where Mr. Tatum helped me back in the fall. Let's say after we attempt to break the opponent's elbow (and hopefully get him to drop the knife), the defense was unsuccessful and the opponent quickly pulls back and re-stabs...what would you do?

Let's here from as many as possible.

[amylong]

The next part of the technique is to parry and move to the side for the kick to the back of the knee. You'd have to be extra careful to check the arm if it's still in play.

I have no knife experience either, so I'm just throwing stuff out.

--Amy

[cameypsaromatis]

Quick question and then I'll get back on track. Will the attacker attack in the same way if he/she knows that we are prepared to defend against that strike?

...Let's say after we attempt to break the opponent's elbow (and hopefully get him to drop the knife), the defense was unsuccessful and the opponent quickly pulls back and re-stabs...what would you do?

[cameypsaromatis]

So, if they re-stab in the same manner as the initial attack, would you not respond in the same manner as your initial defense.

Just also curious what the odds are of them coming at you the same way after you defended against the first attempted strike.

[Blindside]

Ah, cool.

Okay, Camey.

So here's where Mr. Tatum helped me back in the fall. Let's say after we attempt to break the opponent's elbow (and hopefully get him to drop the knife), the defense was unsuccessful and the opponent quickly pulls back and re-stabs...what would you do?

Let's here from as many as possible.

The problem I see with this statement, is that if you are unsuccessful on the grab and break, his return motion is going to leave you with cuts to the inside of your right wrist (where you exposed the wrist in your attempt to grab the wrist) and the inside of your left forearm. With any luck this aren't disabling.

What would I do as the attacker?

As I'm retracting/slashing with the knife, I'm stepping forward with a left elbow/forearm and maybe a headbutt. I'll grab with my left hand and piston my right hand back and forth in short powerful thrusts to your abdomen. I'm using my body to block your right arm, and let you try to stop my blade thrusts with just your left hand.

[jeff5]

In my experience and training its better to be in close, assuming you can't get away and/or get a better or longer weapon. (as opposed to staying in the danger zone where the attacker is slashing away at you. Its still dangerous to be in close, but it gives you a better chance and more options) Get in, control their arm, and if your first disarm/strip/defense doesn't work, be prepared to flow to the next one. You can never anticipate what someone will do.

[jeff5]

Ah, cool.

So here's where Mr. Tatum helped me back in the fall. Let's say after we attempt to break the opponent's elbow (and hopefully get him to drop the knife), the defense was unsuccessful and the opponent quickly pulls back and re-stabs...what would you do?

Let's here from as many as possible.

Here's what I would do. My experience is not from Kenpo, just keep that in mind. So your elbow break doesn't work and the attacker pulls back. Keep hold of his arm and make sure one of your hands has his thumb pad. (We're taught to ALWAYS control the thumb pad) Go with his pull back and either stick him, or strip the knife with your other hand. (one hand on the pad of attackers thumb, other hand strips with either the webbing of your hand or with your forearm. Or, if he pulls back hard enough, drive the knife into his body, and then strip it using it stuck in his body as your lever. (sounds bad I know but hey its better than you getting cut)

Its kind of hard to describe, much easier to show.

[Seabrook]

Quick question and then I'll get back on track. Will the attacker attack in the same way if he/she knows that we are prepared to defend against that strike?

It's all happening quick, so maybe, and maybe not.