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Thread: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

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    Default Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Due to the nature of today's environment do you think that students should be exposed to multiple attacker, gun, and knife techniques at an earlier stage in their training? A lot of schools don't address this until the higher levels like green or above. Your thoughts?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Due to the nature of today's environment do you think that students should be exposed to multiple attacker, gun, and knife techniques at an earlier stage in their training? A lot of schools don't address this until the higher levels like green or above. Your thoughts?
    In some ways I do think that they should be taught these techniques at an earlier belt level, but they are very complex techniques. Teaching a white or yellow belt to handle a knife behind there back would be a bad thing to do if they do not have their basics down. And to expect them to be fast enough to get a gun off their chest or from behing their back wouldbe bad. Before anybody can do these advanced techniques they must first have strong enough basics.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    I start incorporating mutliple attack scenarios as soon as they have two techniques.
    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Due to the nature of today's environment do you think that students should be exposed to multiple attacker, gun, and knife techniques at an earlier stage in their training? A lot of schools don't address this until the higher levels like green or above. Your thoughts?
    -Camey

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    When I was coming up through the ranks I used to call nights when we got to practice this stuff "Gravy Night."

    We don't require it for testing until the higher ranks but we try to introduce students to some of these concepts early in their training. And, of course as PK pointed out, they usually have trouble with some of the more advanced maneuvers.

    Has anyone thought of or implemented some very basic defenses for these types of scenarios? Something that a lower belt with less experience could possibly understand and execute effectively?

    It's just these are very real threats in a lot of metropolitan areas today and I would feel downright sick if any of our students didn't come out of a scrape in one piece. Know what I mean?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    When dealing with weapons a student must have their basics honed to as near perfection as possible. The more dangerous the encounter the more precise you have to be.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    When dealing with weapons a student must have their basics honed to as near perfection as possible. The more dangerous the encounter the more precise you have to be.
    Yeah...sigh.. there's no getting around it. I just want our students to be prepared. It is easy to put a rubber knife in an uke's hand and execute Delayed Sword though. It's a good solid technique that can be easily adapted to various attacks.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    I would like to know a few basic moves that I can use at this point to defend myself (adv yellow/orange belt level). I know I can protect myself pretty well if there isn't a weapon involved, or at a distance w/a weapon but I don't have much idea what to do in a close range weapons scenario. There are a few moves I can use, but I would like to know a bit more... to be more comfortable.
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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Due to the nature of today's environment do you think that students should be exposed to multiple attacker, gun, and knife techniques at an earlier stage in their training? A lot of schools don't address this until the higher levels like green or above. Your thoughts?
    I don't think you should teach advanced techniques to those without the necessary skills and knowlege. The system builds progressively for good reason. But that isn't to say you can't address these things at earlier levels with some good scenario training and teaching some of the concepts used.

    There are some good, simple and effective techniques that can be used against a gun in close. There are also some things you can do to improve your chances at distance against firearms. You'd be outside the base system (AK), but if you think it is necessary this isn't a bad thing. And the principles are consistant with AK.

    For multiple attackers, they can use the skills at their level effectively if you train for multiple assaults. This is anecdotal, but I do know begginers who have succesfuly defended themselves in seriouse multiple attacker situations.

    Knife assaults are probably the most dangerous, and hardest to train for. But you can work things like getting outside the knife hand, and passing it inside, with just basic skills.

    So, yes, I think it is a good thing to introduce these things earlier in their training. But not as advanced techniques. It might even be a good way to get them started adapting what they know, or useing their knowlege to work up their own defenses- or some spontaneity drills. Lots of good ways to make deadly assaults fun!

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by gimpat01
    I would like to know a few basic moves that I can use at this point to defend myself (adv yellow/orange belt level). I know I can protect myself pretty well if there isn't a weapon involved, or at a distance w/a weapon but I don't have much idea what to do in a close range weapons scenario. There are a few moves I can use, but I would like to know a bit more... to be more comfortable.
    With a pistol, you either want him in really close, or way-way out. Firearms are a distance weapon, but the farther out they are the greater chance they'll miss. Get the target in motion and find cover, and leave.

    In close, you have an advantage. The gun can only do harm in the direction it is pointed, and only one bullet at a time. Your priorities should be to move yourself off line and control the weapon and the attacker.

    1. He expects you to "give up", as everyone is intimidated by the firearm (that's why he pointed it at you). The classic gesture is to raise your hands. Do so, but as they come up, step in and turn your body off the line of the firearm as you grab the gun & gun hand with both your hands. Steping outside is preferable, but this will work either way. One hand should grab the hammer or slide (depending on the type firearm), the other grabs underneath, pinning his hand and fingers in place at the trigger guard.

    2. Not necessary, but this works best (especially for smaller people like me) if you hug the pined weapon and hand to your body (edit:sideways, obviously- not barrel end). Immediately step back with the same foot you steped forward with, holding the weapon hand in place and turning it back. This will cause intense pain in the wrist and will break his trigger finger. (we practice this with a plastic dart gun with the trigger guard removed).

    3.Take the weapon and strike him with it. Then shoot him if you want (and if the thing doesn't malfunction- trash like this doesn't necessarily take good care of their guns).

    One note, absolutely do NOT grab the weapon and step out before getting it locked and turned. Steping back first will straighten his arm and pull the weapon right into line with you. You are also pulling it against his trigger finger. Two ways to get hurt- intentional and unintentional.

    This basic technique can be adapted to use from any angle, including from behind. It also can be used, with practice, to control the direction of the barrel so as not to point at any bystanders throughout the technique application.

    You can do something similar against a knife if he holds it on you (as opposed to attacking), but it gets a little more tricky. In close, my opinion is that a knife is far more dangerouse. It can dammage continuously and at any angle or direction. Its use is more instinctive and generally quicker.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    In close, you have an advantage. The gun can only do harm in the direction it is pointed, and only one bullet at a time.
    Most people don't realize that a knife is more dangerous at arms length than a gun. An affiliate instructor just sent me some pix of a U.S. Marshal he knows that was recently in an altercation with a knife wielding criminal. He was cut to pieces. He's lucky to be alive if you ask me... but it was eye opening.... and disturbing.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    An affiliate instructor just sent me some pix of a U.S. Marshal he knows that was recently in an altercation with a knife wielding criminal. He was cut to pieces. He's lucky to be alive if you ask me... but it was eye opening.... and disturbing.
    Yes, I've seen similar pictures, as well as the victims themselves. The really interesting thing, though, is how many of them did not realize they were facing a weapon- or that they had been stabed! Some of them did not know they were seriously wounded for some time after the attack.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan
    Yes, I've seen similar pictures, as well as the victims themselves. The really interesting thing, though, is how many of them did not realize they were facing a weapon- or that they had been stabed! Some of them did not know they were seriously wounded for some time after the attack.
    That's extremely scary, but too true. Even Rob said when he stabbed himself in the thigh with his sword he didn't realize till he fealt the blood running down his leg. 'shudders'
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    ...he didn't realize till he fealt the blood running down his leg. 'shudders'
    That's often the tip off. I know one Kenpoist who beat a knife weilding atacker, without realizing he was armed. He about panicked the ER later when he went in to have a minor bleeding wound "stitched up", and got admitted for a more seriouse wound he didn't even know about. He was lucky to come out of it with just some good conversational scars.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Do you teach your kids how to drive on a slalom course when they get their learners permit?

    How about putting your little leaguer in the 80MPH batting cage?

    Most stair cases have steps relatively close together even though you could skip a few to get to the top faster, you may get hurt along the way- Enough analogies yes?

    There is a reason that these techniques are taught later in an individuals training- For most of us the best technique against a knife or gun is to comply, give up cash etc. unless there is no alternative- A beginner armed with only basic knowledge in this area is more likely to get hurt by trying something silly.

    The motor skills required (I would think) are fairly complex and most beginners heck, probably alot of folks, might lack the skills or focus against a knife or gun-

    In my humble opinion teaching multiple attacker scenarios and defenses against weapons with a student that has learned only 2 techniques is simply putting the cart before the horse... Too much too fast- (Remember when you were a beginner just trying to remember the moves?) imagine if your teacher added a knife or another attacker at that level---

    Just my observations-

    James
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Oh yeah- Just to give my perspective: In Kara-Ho Kempo defenses against weapons and/or multiple attackers is taught at the Green/Brown belt level. So while almost every technique we have can be used against multiple attackers, it is not taught that way for quite a while...

    I am sure that this varies with each system, but I would bet that most save these techniques until the student has a strong foundation.

    Cheers!
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    I understand your point, but I have to go with the train early crowd.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dianhsuhe
    Do you teach your kids how to drive on a slalom course when they get their learners permit?
    As a matter of fact, yes. Snow and ice and mud as well. But I don't wait for their permit. Soon as they can see over the dash.

    For most of us the best technique against a knife or gun is to comply, give up cash etc. unless there is no alternative- A beginner armed with only basic knowledge in this area is more likely to get hurt by trying something silly.
    I think the situation where there is no alternative is what they are training for.

    The motor skills required (I would think) are fairly complex and most beginners heck, probably alot of folks, might lack the skills or focus against a knife or gun-
    Actually, no matter how advanced you are, the motor skills you will be working with in this situation are likely going to be the most basic, gross movements immaginable. Most systems overcomplicate their gun and knife techniques. Learning them is fine for skills, but I'll take the simple one if I have to use it. The one I gave is quick, basic, adaptable, and can be done as you are fouling your drawers. Simple enough for a general self defense course, but effective as anything you'll find, I'd wager. It uses grabs and steps, and pinning to the body naturally anchors the arms. Nothing fancy required, but you can add details as you advance. And the sooner you start practicing it, the more likely it will work.

    In my humble opinion teaching multiple attacker scenarios and defenses against weapons with a student that has learned only 2 techniques is simply putting the cart before the horse... Too much too fast- (Remember when you were a beginner just trying to remember the moves?) imagine if your teacher added a knife or another attacker at that level---
    You don't have to throw them in the deep end of the pool right off. But a little workout in the wading pool is a good start.

    Edit: I spared before I ever learned a technique. It's part of what sold me on studying Kenpo. You don't have to win to learn (fortunately for me, even now).
    Last edited by thedan; 02-20-2006 at 01:47 AM.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    I think it's very important to have at least some idea, early on, on how to deal with weapons. Of course, I also belong to the Col. Fairbairn school of thought that says "empty hand techniques are only for the times when you have been foolish enough to find yourself without a weapon." But that's another discussion .

    In our school we have added a knife technique on the yellow belt list that's very similar to some of the Krav Maga stuff I've seen. Basically you just obtain a 2-on-1 grip on the attacker's knife arm and follow up with front kicks and/or knee strikes to his groin, knees, and shins until he drops the knife. This may or may not be the best way to deal with a knife but it gives the students something to use in case they are unlucky enough to get attacked before they reach brown/black and actually learn the kenpo knife techniques.
    The test: "Will this work so that I can use it instinctively in vital combat against an opponent who is determined to prevent me from doing so, and who is striving to eliminate me by fair means or foul?" ~ Col. Rex Applegate

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    The Dan- Agree to disagree...

    Teach them to:
    1. Turn 180 deg.
    2. Pivot planted foot
    3. Run like hades---
    eilana1 likes this.
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    Okay - after tonight, I realize just why most schools wait til the higher level belts to deal w/knife attacks. We went over some basic self-preservation moves, to have just in case we found ourselves in that situation. but the rest just blew my mind.
    "Second chances they don't never matter, people never change
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    Default Re: Multiple Attackers,Gun, Knife defenses

    I think I was a blue belt before I ever even saw a weapon.

    Probably in part because of that and because of the horrible experience I had the first time I worked with knives (my partner used an unsheathed skinning knife), I have always been a little skittish with weapons.

    I need a good knife video to get me started.

    I'm not sure that would help, but it's a start.

    So, it's probably a good idea to start students a little earlier to play with them at least so they aren't freaked out when they're blue belt and people start trying to kill them.

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