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Thread: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

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    Default Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    I've noticed over the years that this move has some controversy when it comes to execution. How were you taught it, how do you teach it?

    I'll start. In a nut shell for the beginner, lift the front foot and push off on the back foot. Don't hop, shuffle. We'll add in everything else after we get the shuffle down.

    It's interesting how difficult that concept can be for a martial arts beginner, until you tie it to something they already know, like hopping from one foot to the other, and then going forward and backward once they figure it out. Then it's time to start polishing and adding additional action.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    I always thought people had much more trouble with the pull drag..... /shrug

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    I always thought people had much more trouble with the pull drag..... /shrug
    We can add that into the discussion as well.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    We can add that into the discussion as well.
    "pull drags" are easy - don't do them.
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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    been a while since iv looked at the terminology, but a pull drag would where the front foot pulls your forward momentum while it's in the air. ie a kick (kick-drag?) or step that's just "thrown out there" to propel you?
    Brian Sheets
    VKKSI Kenpo 1st Black

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    That's what I think it is, too, but it can be done with a punch or backfist. I've seen people do it when they're sparring (pull drag) and either overextend themselves and lose their balance, or get zero penetration with their strike. It's really only useful in playing tag.
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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quoted without permission from a discussion I had with my friend Dan Djurdjevic on this subject:

    (hope he doesn't mind)

    "With any step there is a temptation to think only of lifting the leg you're moving. But in fact, it is arguably more important to *push down with the leg you're not lifting*.
    If you think of a simple lunge with the front leg, then drag up with the rear, most beginners simply "reach" with their front leg, then "drag" the other leg up. What they should actually be doing is *pushing with their rear leg to propel the lunge*. In this example, the push is more important than the lift of the front leg. Essentially, any form of efficient movement relies on a strong push-off against the ground; "reaching" is really secondary."
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    "pull drags" are easy - don't do them.
    Really? Pull drags are useless?

    Disagree.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~ Louis A. Berman

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoastkenpoist View Post
    Really? Pull drags are useless?

    Disagree.
    Hold on there dude. I never said they were useless, I said don't do them. "Pull drag" is an improper way to move the body unit, that causes you to misalign your platforms at the hip moving forward or rearward. They are used almost exclusively moving forward. When you "pull drag," the first part of the body that moves is the pelvic ring, and that is not good. The pull drag was born out of competition that allowed a quick "flip" of the leg, or reach of the lead hand in a offensive appearing move. Moving backwards just makes it worse and THAT is useless. It can be fast, but it sacrifices sound and solid structure for speed and should you meet any resistance during the process, you will be misaligned and probably knocked down. "Useless," no, but extremely limited and bad for learning proper footwork. It should not be on the books, and is so egregious none of my students are exposed to it because it is not on our list of footwork variables.
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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Hold on there dude. I never said they were useless, I said don't do them. "Pull drag" is an improper way to move the body unit, that causes you to misalign your platforms at the hip moving forward or rearward. They are used almost exclusively moving forward. When you "pull drag," the first part of the body that moves is the pelvic ring, and that is not good. The pull drag was born out of competition that allowed a quick "flip" of the leg, or reach of the lead hand in a offensive appearing move. Moving backwards just makes it worse and THAT is useless. It can be fast, but it sacrifices sound and solid structure for speed and should you meet any resistance during the process, you will be misaligned and probably knocked down. "Useless," no, but extremely limited and bad for learning proper footwork. It should not be on the books, and is so egregious none of my students are exposed to it because it is not on our list of footwork variables.
    Like all foot manuevers there is a moment of falling before reestablishing your base, but I am not sure how that is sacrificing solid structure any more than any other dynamic balance and manuevering.

    I pull drag with a lead knee to initiate movement pretty often. Pull drag with the side of the heel to the shin, etc.

    What am I missing? We don't do much point sparring, but don't change to sacrificing sound principles to do so. We just use the skills in our tool box that fit that environment.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~ Louis A. Berman

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Hold on there dude. I never said they were useless, I said don't do them. "Pull drag" is an improper way to move the body unit, that causes you to misalign your platforms at the hip moving forward or rearward. They are used almost exclusively moving forward. When you "pull drag," the first part of the body that moves is the pelvic ring, and that is not good. The pull drag was born out of competition that allowed a quick "flip" of the leg, or reach of the lead hand in a offensive appearing move. Moving backwards just makes it worse and THAT is useless. It can be fast, but it sacrifices sound and solid structure for speed and should you meet any resistance during the process, you will be misaligned and probably knocked down. "Useless," no, but extremely limited and bad for learning proper footwork. It should not be on the books, and is so egregious none of my students are exposed to it because it is not on our list of footwork variables.
    Ya I have never been a fan of them either.

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    "pull drags" are easy - don't do them.
    So, If I am in a right neutral, as I tend to be, and I pull drag kick/sweep their lead leg, I usually dump them or at least have them set up for my right hand. Why is this bad?
    Sean
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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    Ya I have never been a fan of them either.
    While I don't stalk them, I am a fan.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by Eastcoastkenpoist View Post
    Really? Pull drags are useless?

    Disagree.
    I am sure he meant un-useful
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    So, If I am in a right neutral, as I tend to be, and I pull drag kick/sweep their lead leg, I usually dump them or at least have them set up for my right hand. Why is this bad?
    Sean
    sounds like sparring.
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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    I am sure he meant un-useful
    Yeah, that was why I asked for clarification.
    A good teacher is a master of simplification and an enemy of simplism. ~ Louis A. Berman

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    sounds like sparring.
    I will attack what ever they stick out there for me to attack, wheather I'm sparring or not.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger View Post
    I will attack what ever they stick out there for me to attack, wheather I'm sparring or not.
    Sometimes that's exactly what "they" want you to do ...
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    Sometimes that's exactly what "they" want you to do ...
    True. Then we are both happy.
    Also Mastering Tsing Tao.

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    Default Re: Push-Drag/Shuffle Step

    The SubLevel maneuvers are done in such a way that you don't lose you upper and lower body alignment during execution (simplified explanation).

    I don't know "pull-drag" but from reading what Doc wrote, I would surmise that there is no way to maintain alignment using that maneuver.

    And since it then violates an important rule for us, we don't use it.

    So, KenpoChanger, why is it bad? Because it violates core mandates of our system. You aren't doing our system, not bad for you. Doc hinted at some alignment issues it created, if that isn't part of your Kenpo then you probably wouldn't see anything wrong...

    Now I'm sure Doc could explain exactly why it is mechanically unsound, elaborate on why he doesn't teach it - I've made some assumptions here for sure, but I'm only interested in it because it will enlighten my understanding of the footwork that we do do.
    -David C
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