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Thread: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

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    Default Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Yes, I spelled "konstant" with a "k" on purpose.

    This aspect of Kenpo hasn't been addressed, and I made this point regarding the KENPO PROFESSOR SCHOOLIN RAZZLE DAZZLE thread [ wherein what really happened is RAZZLE DAZZLE schooled everyone else ] yet it was never addressed.

    I ask of all of you who lurk and participate onsite--in addition to the many questions posed in these posts which most of KT didn't answer [ I believe that THE GOLDEN one, LK, Rob, and MJS are the only people who directly answered the questions proposed ]--how can Kenpo as a whole continue to grow prosper innovate and elevate in every regard if in essence we are mirror images of one another?

    And I also ask of you the questions--and prod you to respond to the blunt statement--in the following posts.

    So let's get to it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    This is a cogent response, Rob...and I'm glad you made it. Because EPAK Elders aren't actually first line Elders...EPAK itself in the literal sense came into existence after Mr. Parker's passing. Therefore the frame of reference that's used by EPAK guys who refer to EPAK Elders is skewed and not fully correct. [ Didn't you come from a renegade lineage? ]. I'm quoting Elders who predate EPAK. Like my martial arts grandfather, Coach Cardenas.

    Every single dispute I've had with others onsite regarding the expression and articulation of any Kenpo technique has been rooted in our differing definitions of The Ideal Phase which lead directly to our radically different expression of each SD sequence. There is only one valid accurate and true definition of The Ideal Phase Analytical Process, and that is the definition crafted by Mr. Parker Sr. Here is that definition:

    p.66) IDEAL PHASE- This is Phase I of the analytical process of dissecting a technique.
    It requires structuring an IDEAL technique by selecting a combat situation that you wish to analyze. Contained within the technique should be fixed moves of defense,offense, and the anticipated reactions that can stem from them. This PHASE strongly urges the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW.

    (p.138) WHAT IF PHASE- This is PHASE II of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. this PHASE takes in additional variables. It requires being programmed to further analyze the IDEAL or fixed technique.Expected, as well as unexpected opponent reactions are projected and evaluated. the concept here is that every movement may have critical consequences; thus, in a realistic situation, the need to predict each consequence to the best of your knowledge is imperative. Ideally, all consequential possibilities should be projected, evaluated, and learned. To do so is to increase your ability to instinctively and randomly alter the basic technique, and thus allow yourself a choice of action. <- (sounds alot like what you've accomplished Ras.)

    (p.56) FORMULATION PHASE- This is PHASE III of the analytical process of dissecting a technique. This PHASE involves the actual application of your newly found alternatives to the original IDEAL or fixed technique. Knowing what can additionally happen within the framework of the fixed technique, teaches you how to apply your variable answers to a free and changing environment. This ultimate process of combat training can be learned by using the EQUATION FORMULA for fighting.

    (p.48) EQUATION FORMULA- This is a special formula that one can follow to develop specific, practical, and logical fighting patterns. the formula allows you a more conclusive basis for negotiating your alternative actions. It reads as follows:
    To give any base, whether it is a single move or a series of movements, you can (1)prefix it- add a move or moves before it; (2) suffix it- add a move or moves after it; (3) insert- add a simultaneous move with, the already established sequence (this move can be used as a (a) pinning check- using pressure against an opponent's weapons to nullify their delivery, or (b) positioned check- where you place the hand or leg in a defensive position or angle to minimize entry to your vital areas; (4) rearrange- change the sequence of the moves, (5) alter the- (a) weapon, (b) target, (c) both weapon and target; (6) adjust the- (a) range, (b) angle of execution (which affects the width and height), (c) both angle of execution and range; (7) regulate the- (a) speed, (b) force, (c) both speed and force, (d) intent and speed; and (8) delete- exclude a move or moves from the sequence.


    I will literally show step by step that my expressions are very much in accordance with Mr. Parker's definitions. I also compare the so-called SMIP with my expression...and I raise serious doubts as to the rigorousness with which the EPAK SMIP's adheres to the real deal definition as written by Mr. Parker. Therefore, whatever discussion that should proceed from that point...should NOT be the kinds of discussions we're having now [ ATACX GYM Lone Kimono isn't the Ideal Phase! etc. ]

    Now. Let's look at the false claim that many of my detractors make about my expression being at variance with The Ideal Phase approach [ which, let us remember, is a PROCESS and NOT a TECHNIQUE ].

    In brief? The Ideal Phase involves the selection of a common streetfighting scenario that you wish to analyze dissect and devise a functional solution for using Kenpo techniques and principles. I selected The Aggressive Lapel Grab and the high frequency attacks launched from that platform. The EPAK SMIP selected a dead hand alleged grab, cock back the fist and pose. Right off the bat we see the variance. My approach includes and encapsulates the EPAK SMIP, the converse isn't true. We're to look at The Ideal Phase from 3 Points of View:

    Point of View #1: THE WHAT IF PHASE

    We're supposed to select high frequency, common attacks to defend against in The Lone Kimono SD sequence. What If he pushes, pulls, punches, knees...in combination and aggressively? Observe Keith Hackney and Royce Gracie:

    http://www.allfreefightvideos.com/20...ney-fight.html

    What if he throws or tackles us [ as a counter to our counterattacks, in the midst of his combination attacks, whatever ]



    What if he has a knife, grabs us and attacks us? [ Go to 2:12-3:30 of this video ]



    Or even worse...what if he has a knife and takes us down while stabbing us? [ WARNING: THIS VIDEO IS DISTURBINGLY GRAPHIC AND BRUTAL ]

    http://www.ebaumsworld.com/video/watch/802461/


    What If we're attacked while we're seated [ like if we're at a club, or in school seated at our desks, at home and a argument becomes physical, in our car seated when someone attacks us through the open window or opens our door to get us while we're seated, etc ] or on our knees [ we could be getting up from being knocked down, in the midst of a scramble, defending a takedown and one knee hit the ground, we could have failed at taking our attacker down, etc ] like I showed in my video ATACX GYM LONE KIMONO VS EPAK LONE KIMONO #2?



    Because in the Formulation Phase? It specifically says that we're supposed to take the information that we noted in our What If Phase, and adjust our BASE SEQUENCE'S EXPRESSION ACCORDINGLY.

    And THE EQUATION FORMULA allows to prefix suffix delete yadda yadda to make sure that we have the full range of techniques available to us in Kenpo.

    So...with all that in mind? Will a LK that actually follows The Ideal Phase look like THIS:





    Or would a LK that actually follows The Ideal Phase look like THIS:




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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    For those of you who emailed me and asked me? YES the post above proves beyond a shadow of a doubt that my Ideal is indeed sanctioned beyond any form of dispute by Mr. Parker's own definitions, and all the debates about me not knowing The Ideal Phase or kenpo concepts and principles are fundamentally permanently untrue incorrect wrong flawed and [ insert adjective which means:"inaccurate/untrue" ]

    Now, as I understand it, my expressions are Kenpo "ideas" [ via the esoteric kenpo jargon definition ] but only Ideals for my ATACX GYM.

    In contrast with the Ideal Phase that most champion? What seems to very much be the case there is that--for numerous reasons of their own--most Kenpoists took the deliberately unfleshed out "outlines/suggestions" of Ideals in Big Red designed to teach us how to make our OWN Ideals as instead THEE IDEALS TO SLAVISHLY INFLEXIBLY FOLLOW. Their attack models were based upon a model that would be easily acceptable and workable for a largely clueless 1950s-60s American populace which literally never heard of Kenpo for the most part and considered kicking in fights to be "dirty fighting". As times changed and the American populace experienced multiple martial arts booms ranging from Bruce Lee through the Ninjas to the Hong Kong Cinema incursions to the current MMA craze, the American populace has become faaar faaar more martial savvy.

    As a result? The attack models that were sensible to use as a method to introduce the American masses to this new kroddy thing have been speedily outdated by mass acceptance of the martial arts. People don't attack like that anymore. And if your attack is questionable? So becomes your defenses.

    Thus the SECOND primary issue was raised, which has been the main point that I've championed since my arrival last year: Functional Training.

    Many took my almost Bible-thumping fervor regarding functional training as me saying that KENPO doesn't work. Many thought I was dissing any and every Ideal Phase. They bristled and rushed to the defense of the magnificent Kenpo system from the barbed blustering brainlessness of that ATACX GYM renegade. When I squarely contradicted those assertions--literally hundreds of times--and countered with my blunt bareknuckled challenges to any and everyone who thought that way to produce even ONE quote of mine in its entirety that said or suggested such a thing? None could clothe their claims with even a single quote of mine to justify their position.

    So. Top to bottom? All and literally every single one of the popular denounciations of THE ATACX GYM are untrue. Factually, logically, empirically...and any other "-ly" you can think of.

    My expressions are actually more fully fleshed out expressions of THE IDEAL PHASE as literally written out by Mr. Parker's hand. That is the ultimate sanction [ if I was ever seeking one, which I wasn't ]. Functional Training will vastly instantly and immediately beneficially impact kenpo karate as a whole...whether you do it like Rob, Entryteam, LuckyK, nelson, Zoran, Doc Dave, SL-4, kenpoOG, MJS, KenpoGhost, MikeReis, CyberTiger, ATACX GYM, or Peter Cottontail does it. Doesn't matter. Make it work. And the way to make it work starts with functionalizing the attack.

    And that takes us back to the areas in The Ideal Phase that are really under consideration and formulate the places where we'll have to discuss what kind of functional training that you use, why you use it, and why you prefer it over other approaches. Also...in open-minded discussions...it's where we can learn from one another whether or NOT we wholesale adopt one another's approach. For instance? Rob is nearly on the opposite end of the spectrum from me in various areas of Kenpo, but every time I speak to that brutha on the phone? I learn valuable stuff. I get better at not just Kenpo but at THINKING and being a better martial artist. I get that to the 10th power when I talk to my Uncle.

    Newho...The Ideal Phase areas that I think we diverge at the most and what we consider to be functional and stuff are...

    1. THE IDEAL PHASE:

    This is not just the "idea" of the common streetfighting scenario that we wish to examine, but THE REALITY OF ITS EXPRESSION. For instance, in my family's kenpo? Any and every time that a BG has a grab on you, we automatically assume that there are a host of bad things coming at you fast and hard from any and possibly every limb that ISN'T grabbing you, inclusive of whatever the BG's friends may do, inclusive of weapons and firearms...inclusive of the immobilizing/yanking/pushing/jerking/rag-dolling power of the grip that the BG has on us. That grip could be anywhere...neck, bicep, shirt, shoulder, hair, face [ yes FACE ], belt, knee, pant leg, WHEREVER...and this is the situation that we use as a BASE.

    WHAT IF:

    Our What Ifs are a bit more inclusive too. We include shifting from and to any limb for striking/immobilization/takedown/breaking/etc purposes as part of our considerations. The main thing that separates me from many others is I ask: what if you're in the worst case scenario straightaway? You get surprised, clocked, dropped, dazed and now you have to fight some dude who snuck you from the back...and you're only a Yellow Belt. You just learned Sword and Hammer. What if you're tackled by an armed assailant, mounted, and he's trying to stab your guts out...and all you know is Lone Kimono?

    FORMULATION PHASE:

    This is actually the area that I've been saying for more than a year that I've had the most problems with functional kenpoists onsite and in real life. If they're aware of say...grappling and striking options like say...Rob and LuckyK? Or say...weapon options like MJS? Or say...firearm attacks that are high percentage from the platform of the given h2h scenario...like both Docs, nelson, kenpoOG and myself, etc? Then...where are these considerations built into the first lines of attack and defense? The thing that I have a serious problem with is...how can all of these devoted knowledgeable kenpoists know all these options and NOT inform their kenpo with ingrained methods of defending them? Or if you have...exactly how have you done it?

    LuckyK. Take Lone Kimono. Bad guy bops drops and mounts your kenpo student cuz they caught that student by surprise or Murphy from Murphy's Law came a-calling [ and everyone onsite has experienced the fact that Mr. Murphy loves to come a-callin at the worst damn times ] and now? They're in trouble. Will you teach them the bjj upa and stuff? Do you separate your bjj and kenpo training? Have you crafted a specifically Kenpo response to this situation? What exactly allows you to determine that "such and such" is a specifically "Kenpo" response and "such and such" isn't?

    MJS. Same situation. Now Bad Guy has a knife though. Would you teach them a FMA defense or a Kenpo defense? Is there a middle ground? Where is it? What would you teach and would you include it as part and parcel of your Kenpo LK? Why or why not?

    See...to me? The WHAT IF and FORMULATION PHASE has opened the floor and in fact strongly encouraged us to do exactly the kinds of things I'm doing. I guess that I'm trying to grasp more of what you guys are doing and WHY you're doing it and WHAT you'll teach your students at such and such rank and WHY you'll do it. And how complete and capable your students are as a result.

    Cuz I'm trying to improve too.

    So I throw it out there and see what you guys and gals say. Just like I did--and I mean literally--when I first came here...and received wall to wall flames for it.

    So. I'm not bashing Kenpo. Stop that fiction. Let's stay focused on the very rooted in Kenpo core principle and concept questions that I'm asking.

    And THIS time? Let's not turn it into a shark tank.
    And I'm serious about not turning this thread into shark tank.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by TheGoldenOne View Post
    I just watched a new Movie... "Sharktopus" LOL A Sharks Head with an Octopus body & tentacles. Now, that's a Kenpo combination you can sink your teeth AND Arms into, for sure! I think it should be your LOGO Ras!

    Let me say, "In General" there is No Specific Ideal Phase for Kenpo. Each organization may have it's own "Attack Specific" Scenarios/Techniques/Drills that they my utilize as their "Point of Reference" training syllabus, to teach a variety of things. Coordination, environment, range, positions, maneuvering, targets, natural weapons, natural defenses, principles, concepts, physical /mental conditioning and more. There are {{countless}} ways to defend oneself, and each may be completely different yet effective. Often times when comparing one "idea or method" one must be sure to be on the same page and clearly communicate exactly what you wish to ... Shall I say... "discuss or debate" and not be vague as to nomenclature or semantics which only lead to misunderstandings or arguments. We have one of the most if not, the most technical & versatile systems of the Martial Arts ever created. As such, there are unlimited possibilities to "potential" training techniques, methods, and depending upon your goals, varying philosophies on just how to accomplish said goals. Let us try to enjoy others views, try to understand their thoughts, ideas, questions, backgrounds, and personalities forgiving possibly each others "human" faults in trying to discuss our views/opinions {which may not always come out right/clearly} with respectful debates and less argumentative attacks.
    This is a very very good post from one of the senior-most kenpoists in the world.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    And I'm serious about not turning this thread into shark tank.
    ya way to late for that when you propose that you schooled everyone in the very first post here.
    couple things.

    1st. You have not schooled anyone but yourself here.

    2nd. If you want to have a conversation then stop trying to preach and listen when people talk.

    3rd. Until that happens I am done talking to the wall here, you spend way to much time creating new words, exaggerating existing words, warping existing terminology, misrepresenting existing terminology and concepts, and using circular logic to try to evade anything counter to yourself. It is simply not worth discussing with you, not because your right, but because you try to win by overflowing the screen with unrelated babble until people just get tired of trying to decipher it.

    my recommendation is take it to the mats, but from other threads it seems you have had invitations rescinded due to your attitude on things. That seems to be a bit of a problem.

    I mean no real animosity, I personally thing you are simply trying to sell your dvds, I just do not have the time or desire to deal with your posting style. Now off to go test...

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by LuckyKBoxer View Post
    ya way to late for that when you propose that you schooled everyone in the very first post here.
    couple things.

    1st. You have not schooled anyone but yourself here.

    2nd. If you want to have a conversation then stop trying to preach and listen when people talk.

    3rd. Until that happens I am done talking to the wall here, you spend way to much time creating new words, exaggerating existing words, warping existing terminology, misrepresenting existing terminology and concepts, and using circular logic to try to evade anything counter to yourself. It is simply not worth discussing with you, not because your right, but because you try to win by overflowing the screen with unrelated babble until people just get tired of trying to decipher it.

    my recommendation is take it to the mats, but from other threads it seems you have had invitations rescinded due to your attitude on things. That seems to be a bit of a problem.

    I mean no real animosity, I personally thing you are simply trying to sell your dvds, I just do not have the time or desire to deal with your posting style. Now off to go test...

    Well Dave...

    1st. Actually Dave, I DID school people. To wit:I was being told that I don't grasp Kenpo concepts and principles and that I didn't grasp the sublime lessons of "thee Ideal Phase" technique...that's why I was trying to create my own Ideal Phase techs because I didn't grasp the magnificence that was already before me in EPAK.

    HOW ATACX GYM SCHOOLED THOSE PEOPLE WHO BELIEVED THIS: I pointed out that there is no such thing as any universal Ideal Phase [ quoted Doc's post on the matter, and produced the verbatim copy of Mr. Parker's description of what the Ideal Phase is]. I pointed out that Mr. Parker's description of the Ideal Phase Analytical Technique Process is a PROCESS that strongly encourages "the need to analyze techniques from THREE POINTS OF VIEW." At no time did this description specify that any of the things that we see in the SMIP is in fact THEE Ideal Phase.

    So my detractors actually were displaying their fundamental lack of understanding of what The Ideal Phase is [ by subscribing to the belief that there is only one Ideal Phase technique and that such a technique was largely and mandatorily physically uniform across Kenpo as a whole ] while they thought they were excoriating me for lack of same. But I understood better than they ever did because I challenged such an assertion YEARS BEFORE I GOT ONSITE and I pointed out that my expression is literally solidly rooted in "the works of The Masters..." and specified Infinite Insights.



    1A. I crafted a "Kenpo idea" which is an "Ideal" for my Gym that deals with a wide variety of stimuli and attacks with THE SAME MOVEMENTS. Many of my detractors not only lambasted the sequence that I proposed as a Complete Ideal in my Gym as being "inefficient" and "not the Ideal Phase", and many other far less kind things...they went so far as to say that I didn' know anything about Kenpo, I thought I was smarter than Mr. Parker, that what I recommended was covered in higher belts, I was dissin Kenpo, I thought I was saving Kenpo, I'm basically a DVD huckster, etc etc.

    HOW ATACX GYM SCHOOLED THEM: Every syllable of my position is literally allowed for in the basic definitions and premises of The Ideal Phase itelf. Every move I made and keep making is solidly rooted in Kenpo principles. In this thread and other threads I proved--step by step--that everything I've done in Kenpo rigorously corresponds to the ACTUAL definitions left by Mr. Parker in The Ideal Phase. Therefore literally every position taken by my detractors in this area is not only false, they are repudiated by the ultimate authority on the matter: Mr. Parker's own written words.

    The issues I speak about are not covered in the EPAK arsenal because I introduce things--like ground grappling and a wide variety of weapons--not covered in the EPAK arsenal.

    The FUNNIEST thing is this: My Complete Ideal more stringently covers the steps of The Ideal Phase as written by Mr. Parker's own hand than the EPAK bullSMIP does because my Complete Ideal more fully realizes the What If and Formulation Phases than any bullSMIP ever does or can...by considering all the ramifications of the "initial attack scenario" [ like a two handed push to the chest for ALTERNATING MACES ] and adding many of the attacks most likely to precede, follow, or be concomitant with the "initial attack scenario" [ as well as addressing attacks springing from The Web of Knowledge and other considerations ] as part of THE BASE TECHNIQUE.

    By doing the very thing that my "deeply learned Keepers of Kenpo Knowledge" detractors decried? I more rigorously fulfilled The Ideal Phase requirements that Mr. Parker left for us than most of them have and absolutely in every regard. That's very sharp proof that I was right all along and they were NOT correct with all of their fulminations and accusations...including the DVD huckster charge. And I know you meant no animosity with that charge, Dave, but it's just that your charge is proveably untrue.

    Allow me to emphasize that AT NO TIME have I EVER said that my detractors aren't doing AN Ideal...my issues sprang directly from functionality. I have NEVER stated that my detractors aren't doing Kenpo. I always stipulated without argument that they were. My focus had is and remains functionality. Functionality is the ship, all else the sea.

    I noted that the defenses taught in the SMIP do not work as shown against the live fire attacks that they are alleged to defend against, and I rigorously champion the common sense solution that what we show as defenses/counterattacks/attacks should work exactly as shown in real world throwdowns in the real world scenarios that the SMIP claims to resolve. Sadly, this basic common sense approach was met by withering rebukes and cries of horror from almost all sides.



    2. I'm not preaching. I do listen. I have cited numerous instances when I have taken the advice of my detractors--even from Twin Fist and even from you, LuckyK--yet the converse hasn't been done. Who has answered in as much direct real world detail as I have the doubts questions and shafts of calumny hurled by detractors as much as I have? I doubt anyone onsite has. I am the only one [ besides maybe Rob ] to list in copious detail specifically how I go about doing precisely and exactly, reliably and very very well, the very things that many of you not only doubt that I do but doubt can be done PERIOD. I illustrated my 8 hour, 15 Round Guarantee. I craft videos answering directly the issues brought up onsite and by other people offsite. Who else does this? So yeah...I listen. Very very well. I oftentimes don't AGREE, but not agreeing doesn't mean that I don't listen.

    3. If what you were saying is true, then I would not have and could not have accepted and acted upon the criticisms of my detractors. It's funny and very very revealing that what you called "unrelatable babble" is actually directly related to The Ideal Phase definition left by Mr. Parker which lies at the very heart of the disagreements that we frequently have. As for your advice to "take it to mats"? I live on the mats. There's no way I could have come up with the variants that I proposed teach and refine if I didn't rigorously stay with on the mats. I'm sure that when we meet some time later this year or next that the amount of time we've spent on the mats will become evident.

    For the record? I'm not trying to "win" anything. What is there for me to win? It's amazing that all of this stuff sprang from the most elementary, common sense questions. I've asked:

    1. In Sword and Hammer...realistically, in the real world...how likely is it that the BG is gonna sieze your shoulder or whatever and you respond prior to him firing a punch from his cocked fist? Try that on the mat. Chances of your response preempting his is next to nil. So why do you guys practice it that way?

    2. What is literally the difference between your White Belt and Yellow Belt techniques? What's the difference between your Yellow Belt and Purple Belt techniques?

    3. What happens if he tackles you, or attacks you with a weapon? Will your [ insert technique ] work then? How so? Why not train for that stuff and modify your base technique accordingly?

    Etc etc.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Okay, with that out of the way...how can Kenpo keep evolving if it doesn't consistently produce rigorously and functionally stress tested "kenpo ideas"? We need to see what each of these "ideas" have been stress tested against and what they haven't been stress tested against. We need to see and know the reasoning behind such and such expression of such and such technique.

    If Kenpo does as a whole produce fresh and rigorously tested "ideas"...which I'm willing to stipulate that it does...where are these ideas at? Why are we having difficulty sharing this info with each other? Whether one is a rigid adherent to the SMIP or not, one SHOULD be open minded enough [ and skilled enough ] to evaluate the contributions of others and determine what worth if any is in that particular expression for oneself.

    Doc has SL4K. I see alot that's cool with it, even though I'm not a SL4K guy. Rob has Sandwell Method. I am always mentally stimulated by our conversations. I haven't seen LuckyK's stuff but from all accounts he's supposed to be good. Doc Dave is sicc too.

    So. New expressions for SMIP stuff that is effective. Or new applications for old skool SMIP stuff that works. Let's see some of that stuff.

    Old skool Five Swords:




    Doc Dave 5 Swords Orbits




    Rob aka Thesemindz Five Swords+Grappling [ the first video of his I ever saw ]

    Last edited by ATACX GYM; 07-28-2012 at 06:34 PM.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    So many people seem content to just keep doing teh same thing over and over. Ras, at least you are keeping your (way too busy) mind on your thing that you do, constantly trying to make it better tomorrow, even though you already believe it is the best it can be today. Many people let that confidence of quality be a reason to skate. So while I don't get behind all your ideas (mainly because our posts are too long ROFL) I liek that you keep working at refining and improving what you are doing.

    I think that's how kenpo evolves.

    Not that it needs to IMHO. Could maybe stand a little devolution. Get back to how not to get hit, how to get home safe...
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

    "...while you guys are arguing, I'm on the grind."
    - an anonymous brick puncher

    "If you don't ask the right questions, I can't give you the answers, and if you don't know the right question to ask, you're not ready for the answers"
    -Ed Parker Sr.

    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    So many people seem content to just keep doing teh same thing over and over. Ras, at least you are keeping your (way too busy) mind on your thing that you do, constantly trying to make it better tomorrow, even though you already believe it is the best it can be today. Many people let that confidence of quality be a reason to skate. So while I don't get behind all your ideas (mainly because our posts are too long ROFL) I liek that you keep working at refining and improving what you are doing.

    I think that's how kenpo evolves.

    Not that it needs to IMHO. Could maybe stand a little devolution. Get back to how not to get hit, how to get home safe...
    I was just working my defense [ like always ] this morning. Thinking I was pretty sweet, too. Got into multifight practice, I'm using my combat ginga footwork and not getting hit too much [ clipped here and there ]... when my sneaky cousin Kent [ who's recording us and off to the side and rear of me ] pulls out an AirSoft and pops me in the low back.

    I am COMPLETELY caught off guard.

    My brother and cousin and my good friend pounce on me like the Roman Coliseum lions did the Christians before Daniel came along. Ego brusing drubbing of my frame ensues. We all have a good laugh about that.

    Lesson? Trust no one during training...until the all the work is done, and nobody has any weapons handy.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    There are a lot of people out there adding their concepts and training ideas to kenpo.
    Take a look at the Kenpo/ Boxing fusion, counterpoint kenpo, kenpo 5.0, etc.

    I think the problem most people have with your way of approaching this is, that you have a different order.
    Parker kenpo has a certain method teaching you how to move. That is by giving you basics, techniques, forms and sets.

    The idea is to give the student a common set of movements as a base. This allows communication and makes sure the student is exposed to movement patterns he might not be fond of, giving him more options besides the stuff he likes doing.
    It also teaches body work.

    The idea is to learn the techniques to forget them later on once they become natural.

    And to be accepted I think it's needed to base the "evolution" on the solid foundation. You seem to approach this in a different way. I am pretty sure your approach works great for you and your students, that's why you're so enthusiastic. But some people might have different priorities.
    I love your down to the earth approach and how you practice with a resisting opponent. That's a good thing.

    But if there was one true way to do kenpo, we wouldn't have all these different variants out there
    殺意の忍者猿コーディング
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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    I was just working my defense [ like always ] this morning. Thinking I was pretty sweet, too. Got into multifight practice, I'm using my combat ginga footwork and not getting hit too much [ clipped here and there ]... when my sneaky cousin Kent [ who's recording us and off to the side and rear of me ] pulls out an AirSoft and pops me in the low back.

    I am COMPLETELY caught off guard.

    My brother and cousin and my good friend pounce on me like the Roman Coliseum lions did the Christians before Daniel came along. Ego brusing drubbing of my frame ensues. We all have a good laugh about that.

    Lesson? Trust no one during training...until the all the work is done, and nobody has any weapons handy.
    Hmmm. Looks like somebody is a little confused on their biblical chronology. Or something. But I get your point, and it's a good one.
    "To be, rather than to seem"

    "Fix your rear foot ... What the hell is wrong with you?"

    "...I already watched the videos, and quite frankly, they're bullsh*t."

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by Lenny View Post
    There are a lot of people out there adding their concepts and training ideas to kenpo.
    Take a look at the Kenpo/ Boxing fusion, counterpoint kenpo, kenpo 5.0, etc.

    I think the problem most people have with your way of approaching this is, that you have a different order.
    Parker kenpo has a certain method teaching you how to move. That is by giving you basics, techniques, forms and sets.

    The idea is to give the student a common set of movements as a base. This allows communication and makes sure the student is exposed to movement patterns he might not be fond of, giving him more options besides the stuff he likes doing.
    It also teaches body work.

    The idea is to learn the techniques to forget them later on once they become natural.

    And to be accepted I think it's needed to base the "evolution" on the solid foundation. You seem to approach this in a different way. I am pretty sure your approach works great for you and your students, that's why you're so enthusiastic. But some people might have different priorities.
    I love your down to the earth approach and how you practice with a resisting opponent. That's a good thing.

    But if there was one true way to do kenpo, we wouldn't have all these different variants out there
    Yes I do know of Counterpoint, 5.0, and I've known of the Kenpo+Boxing thing for decades [ well before anybody dreamed up marketing schemes, the boxing-kenpo connection was taken for granted in the streets that I grew up in and most of the other hoods that I either heard about or visited, and this was in the '70's and early '80's; before Frank Trejo's Black Belt Magazine article came out ].I remember there was something called "Sugar Ryu Jiujitsu" that was the first marketed approach that I knew of that presented something similar to what we used to do with our martial arts training all the time and took literally for granted.

    http://crossonmartialarts.com/Master-Crosson.html

    There was this brutha nicknamed "J-Hun" who my Kenpo seniors used to talk about cuz they boxed with him http://www.umaacademy.info/content/about-founder . That brutha is supposed to be one of the first West Coast capoeira angoleiros too, along with Mestre Dennis Newsome. Mestre Dennis is deeply respected round my way, but Idk much about J-Hun in capoeira [ never saw him gitdown capoeira style so I can't personally co-sign his skillz ]. J-Hun and my Kenpo seniors boxed with a host of other people [ like Meldrick Taylor's people and some of Sugar Ray Leonard's sparring partners and the Norris brothers ]. All of them are still solid boxers to this day. Word is that J-Hun trained and excelled with GM Wally Jay and the late great Prof. Moses Powell [ who does NOT get his just respect and props from the MA world ].


    But see...here's the difference that I see: Alot of people claim that thus and so is their particular expression and that they have a sharply divergent but beneficial, logical extension of their kenpo to present. But when you ask them to show say...Leaping Crane? Zero difference. You [ I'm using the word "you" in a general sense, not the specific sense ] have Leaped that Crane all of your life. And if you asked them to bridge the gap between your Leaping Crane and yours? They couldn't. They don't know your [generally SMIP ] Leaping Crane and can't quite justify THEIR Leaping Crane from your perspective as a result.

    I can literally fight with whatever SMIP tech. The way I got to my Complete Ideal is because I stress tested the SMIP first, found major questions and issues with it, and evolved into my own Complete Ideal as a result. In the process, I did exactly what Mr. Parker's Ideal Phase definition allowed us to do and even encouraged us to do, and apparently I did exactly what Mr. Parker wanted each of us to do: create our own Ideals and by doing so? We add to Kenpo's arsenal of "ideas".

    Kenpo 5.0 to me looks like Kenpo+ a smattering of MMA. Well...there still isn't much evolution in the Kenpo expression. See, the Kenpo training method should impact and improve the training method and expression of MMA and vice versa. But from what I've seen? The Kenpo expression is still essentially the SMIP:

    Sooo...what if you show me your Sword of Destruction?



    I'll say that's cool. And then I'll build from that to...What If he punches you?



    What if you're tackled to the ground and have to deal with yon ne'er-do-well?



    And then I'll include that in the base technique's expression. That's how I help to contribute to kenpo's evolution. The end tech doesn't always look the same due to the "process of evolution", as it were. Just like Neanderthal and homo sapiens sapiens don't look the same. I'm not calling the SMIP Neanderthalic, don't go there. I'm emphasizing the process of evolution and the oftentimes mandatory changes it entails...as opposed to a classic, inflexible approach that claims to evolve via its method of training:

    Prof. Downey, 5 Swords with Extension:



    Jeff Speakman, 5 Swords with Extension:



    Functional 5 Swords:







    See how there are little variations between the first two but a more sharp variant in the Functional series? Each vid shows a step in "evolution" but the Functional 5 Swords is more obvious in its innovation, more comprehensive in its treatment.

    and as you know big Lenny, I don't think that there's a "true way" to practice Kenpo in the sense that there's ONLY ONE WAY to practice Kenpo...but any Kenpo that works in self-defense in a reliable way has to be functional by definition. Once you're functional? Then there're still an infinite variety [ or just a whole freakin lot ] of ways to practice and train. There're as many functional ways of doing Kenpo as there are functional Kenpoists.

    The problem is...there aren't enough functional kenpoists.
    Last edited by ATACX GYM; 07-30-2012 at 07:55 PM.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by MarkC View Post
    Hmmm. Looks like somebody is a little confused on their biblical chronology. Or something. But I get your point, and it's a good one.

    Yeah man...messed up on the chronology. Haven't slept in awhile. Guess it's showing.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    What I don't get is why there is even more than Sword Of Destruction taught in your system. Seems to me you address every possible attack with that one technique so why cloud the issue with another one?
    -David C
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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    What I don't get is why there is even more than Sword Of Destruction taught in your system. Seems to me you address every possible attack with that one technique so why cloud the issue with another one?
    LMFAO!!! Funny you should say that, as I have asked that same question myself, numerous times!

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Hmm.....as I gaze deep into my crystal ball, I see another 20+ page thread, very, very similar to all those other 20+ pages threads out there. LOL!

    Ok, enough noontime humor for the day! Seriously though, I doubt I can add more to this, other than what I've said in those other threads. Understand the base techs. Can you make them work? Yes, great. No, ok, figure out why. Don't be bound by the base moves. Test yourself. Get on the mat and experiment with other Kenpoists, non Kenpoists, etc. Make sure you're training as alive and real as possible, while still keeping some sort of safety in mind. And last but certainly not least, as long as you're comfortable with the way you train, then keep on training. If there're 30 other Kenpoists out there, and you feel they suck, who gives a ****!!! If you're not training with them, never plan on training with them, then again, who gives a **** how they're training, as long as you're not training with or like them.

    *my use of 'you' is not directed at any one particular person. Just a general statement.*

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by ATACX GYM View Post
    Yeah man...messed up on the chronology. Haven't slept in awhile. Guess it's showing.
    Daniel---old testament...lions in the Coliseum ---New testament and beyond

    Yea you missed that one by about a 1,000 years...lmao
    Tradition is not about the preservation of the ashes, but about keeping the flame alive

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    so I looked at a couple of the videos Ras posted, and to be honest I am not really impressed, I think its the exact same type of stuff he is complaining about in other peoples videos.

    in his first 5 swords/6hands/whatever video he is going against a completely compliant partner, and his posture is not strong in his striking, and he is taking way to much for granted.
    all you are doing is an exploration in the what if stage, exactly what you should be doing, but only after you understand the basic premise... in 5 swords we are talking about getting inside the opponents punch and working from there. I have no problem with what you are doing, it is not an evolution though, its been done... many many times, by many many people. it is not special, its simply a what if, and quite frankly its not very well done in that video, I am sure you not only could, but do better in most training sessions...like i said it reminds me of the videos you complain about.

    your stuff on the ground is just off Ras, it has no sense of identity. First of all the emphasis on Judo and Kenpo are not the same thing. Judo is a sports oriented art, designed completely for one versus one work primarily in the clinch range, with grappling work being very limited since the goal of Judo is to pin an opponent on his back. The grappling range you go to is fine for grappling, but Kenpo was not designed to grapple with, are there situations where we can safely grapple with another person on the ground? Sure, but if your changing the focus of kenpo to grappling you have changed the essense of the art, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu is designed to work in the grappling range, and to be entagled with an opponent while you are working on submissions and advancing your position. We as kenpo practitioners can use the grappling range, but we should be using it differently. You are not controlling your opponent on the ground, It is obvious he is either not skilled in that range, or is being completely compliant for you to work on. I think that a kenpo practitioner going to the ground to grapple is changing the point of the art. I love grappling, but when i do that I call it what it is. When I use the grappling range in kenpo it is much different, the only way I do that is when I have gained control of my opponent standing and take him down via a throw or takedown and maintain control to a point on the ground that I still have the option to disengage, submit via joint attack, choke, or strikes, my choice. in the video above you are not controlling your opponent you are in an advantageous position but you are still entagled with him and unable to move away at any given point. What would I do differently? I would change the point of emphasis from grappling with the guy, to getting out from under him and getting to a position of control again, create more distance, and get out. If you want to control a person on the ground in the grappling range you need to control 3 of 5 points... those being left shoulder, right shoulder, left hip, right hip, and the sternum. I have said it before and I will say it again. I think you are a great athlete. I think you are probably a formidable fighter, you have a great attitude when it comes to what you do, and you have great confidence. I do not have any problems with your particular skillset, and how you personally apply it. I do however think your approach is disjointed, I think you have a mish mash of technique from different philosophies of self defense and sport related arts that you toss together, sometimes in ways that oppose each other. I think for most people this is not going to be a good way to teach a self defense system, or philosophy. I think you lose the message of the concepts in the sake of technique. I think you mistake poor execution in videos you try to use as examples for poor concepts, or bad ideas. I have almost completely lost any desire to discuss anything with you because you come across like you think you know it all. You come across like everyone else is wrong and you are right. You come across like you never say anything bad, and are the most educated person on the forums. What I have seen does not appear to be examples of any of that.
    to clarify...
    my problems with you are your constant barrage of insults on the system which are based in your own misperceptions, and videos based on poor execution rather then the system itself
    I think you are kind of all over the place in your approach to martial arts, and given your varied experiences I think that is understandable.
    I think that making claims that you can make any technique work in any position against anything is not only false, but martial fantasy as Doc would say.
    I think that you came here completely with the mindset of selling your dvds. I think that discussion was never really in your gameplan.
    now on a positive note, I think you could probably show anyone a trick or two, or rather an idea, or skillset from one of the many martial arts you work with.
    I still think you would be fun to get on the mats with and work ideas back and forth, especially given your attitude and varied skillset. I think you would be a good person to work ideas on and get a good idea of how someone would use completely different mindsets to counter, or even defeat movements and back and forth.
    I am sure you will take this post as a complete bash on you, and while some of it is, it is not meant to be an end all negative assessment of you. I think I have gone out of my way to point out positives, and I am pretty blunt and to the point. I do not look for positives for the sake of being nice. Not my style. So if you want to have a discussion, then this is probably the last chance on these forums for you and I too have a discussion, balls in your court though so it depends on how you reply.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    What I don't get is why there is even more than Sword Of Destruction taught in your system. Seems to me you address every possible attack with that one technique so why cloud the issue with another one?

    There is only one Sword of Destruction taught in my system as a BASE. But remember three things:

    1. My system always always has the concept of RADIUS [ 360 degrees of protection from every primary self defense position including kneeling sitting prone etc etc and any mix this vs the BG ] and R.D.L.L.P.E. [ we abbreviate this to R.D.L. ] R.D.L.L.P.E.= ROCK [strikes ] DROP [ any and all throwing sweeping tripping displacement dropping tackling launching grappling manipulating options ] LOCK [ all submission control and compliance holds ] LOAD [ "load" a nonfirearm weapon ] POP [ shoot a firearm/disarm a firearm ] ESCAPE [ self explanatory ]. Each one of these categories have specific options per sequence and belt rank. What you see on video are the same options that have been in my S.o.D. since forever. You're just seeing them piecemeal and out of order [ something I do on purpose; I have experienced people misusing my material before and resolved never to have that happen again ]. Any part of my ATACX GYM Sword of Destruction RADIUS R.D.L. is still Sword of Destruction RADIUS R.D.L. For ethical reasons, I have never and will never show the whole options of my sequences on video; especially youtube video.

    2. Nobody--not a single person--who does videos with me has ever consented to having more than the most basic options demonstrated upon them on video. Pain is an excellent teacher. Lol.

    3. We are constantly refining improving altering and working upon our sequences. My Sword of Destruction or [ insert technique ] will always change and improve. Every month. Every day...hopefully every hour or sooner. My Sword of Destruction from 2011 isn't the same as my 2012 S.o.D. We constantly evolve, streamline, refine, improve...become more efficient and effective.

    Hope that helped.

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    no, not that you have more than one sword of destruction.

    Why do you have any techniques OTHER THAN SoD? When SoD can address every attack from every position?
    -David C
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    -Ed Parker Sr.

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    - Doc Chapel

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    Default Re: Kenpo "ideas" and kenpo's "ideal phase"...konstant kenpo evolution

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    no, not that you have more than one sword of destruction.

    Why do you have any techniques OTHER THAN SoD? When SoD can address every attack from every position?
    Are you serious? Well, having answered this question a million times already, allow me to say:

    http://www.kenpotalk.com/forum/showt...573#post165573

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