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Thread: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

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    Default Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    I've seen people grin in delight while working wrist grabs, I've seen people balk, I've seen ambivalence.

    What is the purpose? What's the use? Nobody attacks by grabbing your wrist.
    Right?

    While that may be technically true, in my experience, when a struggle takes place, oftentimes a person wants to disable the weapon of their attacker......more often than not, the weapon is a fist.
    Maybe you want to disable your attackers weapon without beating the tar out of them, understanding a wrist release will help you understand the mechanics of a proper wrist lock or control.

    During my time as a doorman in a club, I encountered many different people with varying personalities. I always found that the passive aggressive people would be the ones that would wind up grabbing my hands.
    They didnt want to fight, but they didnt want to listen. If you moved to touch them, they would generally touch the part that was touching them in order to remove it.
    Some people drink enough to dull inhibitions, but not enough to really affect their motor ability........these are the ones you could really have trouble with. As a doorman, I was in a position that required me to be as amicable as possible when dealing with a patron, i was required by law to observe certain rules as well. So it was in my best interest to understand how to control an opponent rather than beating them senseless.

    Not everyone is going to be put in a situation where they are going to need this skill.......but like any skill, you should develop it so that it becomes second nature. Wrist releases should take a fraction of a second to execute.

    Understanding the mechanics of a wrist release helps someone to understand a lot more than wrist releases.

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz
    ...oftentimes a person wants to disable the weapon of their attacker......more often than not, the weapon is a fist.
    Maybe you want to disable your attackers weapon without beating the tar out of them, understanding a wrist release will help you understand the mechanics of a proper wrist lock or control.
    I generally agree with your whole post. This is a good reason to understand both releases and counters that turn the tables and control him. So happens that I worked one of our counters yesterday from a variety of scenarios that put me at an initial disadvantage. Far from useless, it worked very well on two different opponents (one a LOT larger), both of whom were resisting. And any kind of grab can, and will, occur in a fight. To overlook it in training is to be less than adequately prepaired, in my VERY humble opinion.

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Shawn,

    The wrist grab techniques address 'control & restraint' aspects.

    As a male, there may be little chance of being attacked in this way, but for a female the chances of someone grabbibg you by the wrist to drag you off somewhere are much more likely.

    I have a female student who has used the initial part of crossing talon in a real situation, and her attecker decided to leave her alone as it was obvious this lady wasn't going anywhere she didn't want to be without a major battle.

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Some wrist grab defense mimic a parry and are a great way to teach body movement and structure. If they can control their opponent after contact is made it will be very easy when they are weightless during a punch. Also, if their body alignment is not very good, a fast and/or large opponent may be able to punch through their parry.

    This is a great teaching tool and to start from a static position before working from a punch and speeding up the punch.

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Preparing for any attack possible will increase your chances of being victorious if confronted by it. IMHO But it is equally important to pay attention to what's going on "today" in being prepared. For instance, the UFC is very popular right now and, regardless of any training, you are probably more likely to have someone attempt to "shoot" in on you than you were in the past or attempt a round kick to your head or thigh. Monkey see monkey do. Know what I mean?

    Wrist grabs are a very real form of attack. Just look at the vid Camey posted. In the second one when the two fella's first started strokin', if you pay attention, the guy on the left reaches for and attempts to grab the wrist of the guy on the right as he is swinging. He misses, but the attempt was made.

    I guess you could say I find them useful.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    They are usefull.. if you look at fight statistics over 80% of fights end up on the ground. Wrist manipulation is insainly important if only to better understand how the tendons in the arm work and more importantly how they do not work. Wrist manipulation translates into arm manipulation and as Mr. Parker said.. the ankle is the wrist of the foot... ever tried applying tension to the foot the same way you do to a wrist? It's facinating how much control you can get in a ground fight by attacking the foot.

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    They are usefull.. if you look at fight statistics over 80% of fights end up on the ground. .
    No you didn't go there!

    Would you please cite the source of this data? I would love to see a link or source that backs up the percentage with actual data and cites the source of that data with real numbers.

    There was a recent article in "Combat" magazine (if/when I find it I will be glad to scan and post it.) About the fallacy of the 80-90% of fights ending up on the ground myth. This is a myth BTW.

    The only study out there (according to what I found and the article backs up) that is close is one done by the LAPD. And it wasn't even about real fights per se. It involved how many attempted apprehensions where the perp resisted ended up on the ground. That study showed only 64%.

    Don't take this the wrong way. I have a grappling background prior to my Kenpo studies. It's a fun sport. I do believe every Martial Artist should have a ground game and needs to practice those skills. I do however, feel the need to stress in terms of self defense the importance of not intentionally going there. I SUPPORT the addition of any grappling to any schools syllabus. It is a BENEFIT.

    Some reasons fights may go to the ground : 1) The fight is unresolved and the combatants become fatigued ( so end it quick!)
    2) The combatants are drunk/high and lack coordination (so don't get drunk or high!)
    3) A combatant(s) trip over something in their immediate environment (so apply environmental awareness skills!)
    4) The combatants simply have no fighting skills or experience (so practice, practice, practice!)

    Sorry about that LOL. Every time I hear that it drives me nuts. Kind of like the "Truth" commercials...I'm not even a smoker and those drive me crazy.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    hummm if so then I stand corrected and thank you for that. I have always heard the 80% thing and from every fight I have seen it seemed logical. Maybe I have great luck in the fights I have seen.

    Yes the "Truth" adds are annoying.. I did smoke for a while.. and as Dennis Leary once said.. "You can package smokes in black packeges with skulls and crossbones and call them Tumers and people will be lined up arround the corner to get their hands on them!"

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    I certainly teach and practice various grab defenses against my wrists, forearms, upper arms, etc. In the beggining I have students put their arm out for the grab. Then as they get better we move into a more realistic idea of how they might get grabbed.

    One thing I do when messing around with my training partners is stick my hands up and give them something to grab. I'll lightly tap the back of their hands and entice them to grab me. When they grab I move twice, take their center and take them out.

    Worked on this last night in fact. Lot's of fun.


    With respect,
    John Evans

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    I admit that the fights I've witnessed with relatively untrained persons most often end up on the ground due to factors cited above.

    I also must admit that fights where at least one person is trained usually do not.

    Regardless, my point actually is that a well rounded martial artist should be prepared for any eventuality. Wether it be a wrist grab or a tackle.

    Training in all ranges and for all types of attacks is the only way to increase your chances of coming out on top. "In the end it matters not who was right, but who is left." SGM Ed Parker.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    [quote=Celtic_Crippler]No you didn't go there!

    Would you please cite the source of this data? I would love to see a link or source that backs up the percentage with actual data and cites the source of that data with real numbers.

    There was a recent article in "Combat" magazine (if/when I find it I will be glad to scan and post it.) About the fallacy of the 80-90% of fights ending up on the ground myth. This is a myth BTW.

    The only study out there (according to what I found and the article backs up) that is close is one done by the LAPD. And it wasn't even about real fights per se. It involved how many attempted apprehensions where the perp resisted ended up on the ground. That study showed only 64%.


    Some reasons fights may go to the ground : 1) The fight is unresolved and the combatants become fatigued ( so end it quick!)
    2) The combatants are drunk/high and lack coordination (so don't get drunk or high!)
    3) A combatant(s) trip over something in their immediate environment (so apply environmental awareness skills!)
    4) The combatants simply have no fighting skills or experience (so practice, practice, practice!)



    Just to echo this...I have heard statistic saying 80-90% of fights end up on the ground come from law enforcement. Reason being they are trained to take someone down and cuff them. They are typically not trained to Five Swords someone into submission. They have liability issues to deal with as well so they are trained accordingly.
    A good or trained civilian fighter should not end up on the ground anywhere near 80% of the time.
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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Kosho-Monk
    I certainly teach and practice various grab defenses against my wrists, forearms, upper arms, etc. In the beggining I have students put their arm out for the grab. Then as they get better we move into a more realistic idea of how they might get grabbed.

    One thing I do when messing around with my training partners is stick my hands up and give them something to grab. I'll lightly tap the back of their hands and entice them to grab me. When they grab I move twice, take their center and take them out.

    Worked on this last night in fact. Lot's of fun.


    With respect,
    John Evans
    I love that trick.

    i think the trick for working this sort of thing lies in understanding a few fundamental principles and then having fun with it.

    Like i said in my first post......a wrist grab is not generally an attack, it is usually an attempt to restrain your available weapons. it is important to work any kind of grab as they may really happen.
    push/pull, up/down, twisting, anything that forces dynamic application.

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    Lightbulb Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    There is yet another way to look at the potential for applying Wrist Grab techniques. Grafting.

    A very real possibility is that during the course of a technique when you blast someone, regardless of the special weapon being employed, that often times the opponents natural reaction is to contract around the damaged area. In other words, if you are performing 5 Swords and as you strike the uppercut, your opponents hands immediately clasp his stomach after you uppercut...it may be that inadvertantly he traps your hand, before you can retract it. What do you do now? You move directly into Falling Hammer or Crossing Talon or another wrist grab technique.

    While you're probably correct, that the odds against someone walking up and grabbing your wrist (unless like BLackcat or myself you're working Security) is probably very slim. Knowing how to react, when the Chaos Factor unravels and you find your opponent, possibly even accidentally traps your hand, while trying to protect himself, is an invaluable tool.

    We practice many of the more obscure attacks this way. As most fights do begin with either a push or a punch, sometimes during the natural course of the technique it morphs into a grab or hold.

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    I think that the 80-90% phrase really took off when grappling was trying to take off ... What better way to try and convince others to try your style. However .... I feel that 100% of all fights should end up on the ground ... the attacker on the ground and the defender walking away.

    But this takes the thread to a different topic .... Wrist grabs are attacks that will happen to anyone not just women ... I have a student who has been grabbed be the wrist on several occasions. He said that most of them were wrist grabs from behind of from the side ...

    Wrist grab techniques train you in dealing with a situation that can/will happen at anytime during a confrontation.
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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    There is yet another way to look at the potential for applying Wrist Grab techniques. Grafting.

    .


    Ah you beat me too it!! That’s what I was going to add aside from all the other aspects that were posted I am always looking at how I can graft wrist locks into techniques. I’ve been playing with the storm techniques and ending with some form of wrist lock and maybe a take down. Seems logical (I may be wrong) but if I were to botch the first part of stopping a club and it turned into an all out wrestling match for control of the club, I would have an advantage if I were versed in wrist control? Or defense against such
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Blackcatbonz View Post
    I've seen people grin in delight while working wrist grabs, I've seen people balk, I've seen ambivalence.

    What is the purpose? What's the use? Nobody attacks by grabbing your wrist.
    Right?
    Part right, part wrong.

    The problem that I see is that the vast majority of Kenpoists (and non-Kenpoists alike) teach wrist grab defenses against a static attack. That is, someone comes up to you, grabs your wrist, and then you react without the attacker doing anything else but a wrist grab.

    That is not realistic.

    For example, what does everyone teach is the catalyst for Crossing Talon? In other words, what do you teach beyond simply someone coming up to you, and instead of punching us in the face or grabbing our shirt, instead decides to grab our wrist?

    Hint: where is the angle of least resistance in this technique?
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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    jamie, we are very fortunate! pm me if you know anything about the seminar on mr tatum's website (upstate ny in june '07).... pete
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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    As I was reading through the post, I already knew my response was going to talk about grafting and 5 swords/getting hand trapped etc but Sifu already beat me to it. How am I ever going to get my post count up if you keep beating me to the punch?!(or wrist grab in this case. )
    Loyal student of Sifu DangeRuss
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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    Part right, part wrong.

    The problem that I see is that the vast majority of Kenpoists (and non-Kenpoists alike) teach wrist grab defenses against a static attack. ... That is not realistic.

    For example, what does everyone teach is the catalyst for Crossing Talon? In other words, what do you teach beyond simply someone coming up to you, and instead of punching us in the face or grabbing our shirt, instead decides to grab our wrist?

    Hint: where is the angle of least resistance in this technique?
    Agree about the realism. But not sure what you're asking with the angle of least resistance. If trying to break a grab, it would be to work against the thumb. If trying to counter grab, as in CT, it is a small circle with the grabed hand. If you are talking about moving your body , it is into him, instead of pulling against him.

    ???

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    Default Re: Wrist Grab Defenses - Useful or Useless?

    In proper application they are very useful.

    However in a let me come up and grab your wrist self defense ... that isn't how it will go down.
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