Joseph Simonet " I discarded kenpo"

[LuckyKBoxer]

You called him?!?! What are you trying to do? Don't you realize it is much easier to speculate, gossip, and denigrate people if you don't talk directly to them and allow them to define and describe their position? You must be some touchy-feely liberal. I bet you live in California.

those are fighting words in this household buddy!!!!!
lol
actually I sent him an email and included my phone number, I was not expecting any return response, let alone a phone call from him. Let alone within a day.

[punisher73]

If you want to call a life time of study semantics, fine, but there is no friggin bigger box if you understand the term.
Sean

Instead of little quips, expound on your ideas so that they can be discussed.

I do think it is semantics. Like I said in my post, there are no strikes that are "kenpo" there are no principles or concepts that are "just kenpo", he has not included kenpo material in what he has done for a long time now. So is there a way that a "kenpo man" moves that is totally exclusive to any other style of fighting? So for someone to say that they abandoned their kenpo, but their kenpo didn't abandon them is playing a word game in this discussion of what is meant by him saying consciously that he abandoned kenpo.

[HKphooey]

So I just got off the phone with Mr. Simonet, I contacted him and he called me back and we spoke for almost an hour.
He never once tried to sell me anything or even really get into any business talk.
I would say that we had a great talk, discussed each of our journeys through martial arts, and found we both have an extremely similar take on things, and approach to things.
I think he would be a great person to get together with and train, discuss the arts, and what not.
In regards to the thread, I can not say with 100% certainty, but after talking with him, I am convinced he is not using the training models from his Kenpo at this point.
I think I need to take some time to digest our conversation, and think on it, but alot of my thoughts were already leaning towards things he said.
I am not saying I am interested in abandoning any of my Kenpo teaching or training, but I do see alot of the problems, especially in regards to commericalized kenpo training.
I need to get with some of the people training Kenpo a bit differently like Doc, and see whar he does, but I feel that there are better drills, or better ways to spend time to gain the skillsets then alot of what I am seeing.

Perfect! If you want a man to answer a question, you need to ask him first.

[J Ellis]

Now THERE'S a way to get an answer to a question...

Once you have a chance to digest I would appreciate hearing some of what you discussed, either on the forum or by PM. Just wondering how closely his observations parallel my own.

If he chooses to answer you by PM, I hope he copies me as well.

[J Ellis]

those are fighting words in this household buddy!!!!!
lol
actually I sent him an email and included my phone number, I was not expecting any return response, let alone a phone call from him. Let alone within a day.

My respect for Mr. Simonet increased just knowing how he responded to you. Thanks for reaching out to him, and thanks for letting us know how accessible he is.

[dankenpo]

Yeah, my respect for him increased, too. Please let me know the results of that conversation as well, please. Thanks.

[HKphooey]

I think it is safe to say that throughout history all martial arts styles evolved/changed out of necessity, environental changes, and demands on the body. I think the same can be said of the martial artist. Age, career, socail lifestyle, student base, etc. will all play a role in steering you down a certain path. I never felt one art was better than another, just better suited for the situation. For Mr. Simonet, it may have just been the next logical step in his discovery.

[MJS]

Now THERE'S a way to get an answer to a question...

Once you have a chance to digest I would appreciate hearing some of what you discussed, either on the forum or by PM. Just wondering how closely his observations parallel my own.

Yes, I'm interested as well. Feel free to post or PM.

Mike

[hongkongfooey]

Discard the older outdated "bits" but not Kenpo as an art. Its still very effective if taught by the right person.

Finding that right person is key. Unfortunately today's Kenpo is awash in a sea of suckiness.

[BJTipton]

Anyone who knows me knows that I love what Joseph Simonet does and I advocate and push for the Argument of Movement any chance I get. Do I always agree with him? No. But I usually don’t agree with anyone 100% of the time. Do I think that he could have created what he has without Kenpo? Probably not. Do I think he has earned the right to do his own thing and say what he wants to say? Absolutely. Will I continue to learn what he has to teach? Most certainly. I think his stuff is genius. The Argument of Movement has been one of the single greatest tools in unlocking my understanding, if not the single biggest. I strongly recommend everyone learn it as soon as possible.
I have trouble explaining how it works in my head, but I am going to try. Sorry if it doesn’t make sense. I imagine my Kenpo as a house, the basics being the foundation. The self defense techniques are a big pile of bricks. Each brick is needed to make the house, but they are doing no good just stitting there in a pile. The Argument of Movement and the Skill Sets have been the mortar or glue that fits the bricks together in a way that they can make a house. A strong brick house. All techniques come together to make a strong solid structure, held together by the mortar, The Argument of Movement. Which is more important, the mortar or the bricks? Is one really useful without the other?
I love Kenpo and still practice my system. Thanks to an awesome instructor I see the value in every technique. However, I have begun to build my own house, a house that I really like. I still have work to do on it, but I am getting there. When I am done, I am sure I will constantly be remodeling. I might even build a whole new house. Who know? I personally think that is the way Kenpo was meant to be. Once you learn the system and have a good grasp on it, then you mold it to you. Build your own house so to speak.
I have attached a couple of links of me doing the Argument of Movement and the Slam Set by Joseph Simonet. I really love what Mr. Simonet is doing, and as soon as I get the chance I hope to train with him again. I like the way he goes about his martial art, the way he looks at things, and the model he is building.

Me doing the Slam Set.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pU8kAO57Y0A

My training partner and I doing the Argument of movement.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FkPdH_5Ql3s

Brandon Tipton

[sigung86]

Good thoughts and good vids BJ. I also believe that, while Kenpo should be taught as it is, the whole idea is to create a system that is useful for you. One only has to look at the differences in physical make up of individuals to see that the techniques won't all work as advertised for all people. And, at the risk of pissing off some folks, after a certain level, there's not a lot that is new. Once you have achieved that level then it behooves you to think in terms of how it all works for you.

The system, as taught, doesn't need to be changed, although many of the so-called Masters and BBs out there think so. It is a matter of passing it along as it is, and then letting the student make it work for her/him.

[MarkC]

I think one place kenpo students get derailed is the idea of changing things to suit their body type, etc. Changing the techniques around I can see, BUT using this as an excuse to avoid doing basic movements correctly (yes, I said "correctly") is a direct cause of a lot of suckiness. On the flip side, if you have solid basics, you can go very far....

[hide767]

Everyone has the right to do what they want to a point.Mr.Simonet is a very good martial artist he choose his path.He gained basics in Kenpo then went on to study other arts and add them to what he already knew.I started in boxing in the 70's then Moo Do Kwon,and that led me Kenpo.I studied Kenpo for awile.I got out of it because I moved and I couldn't find a quality instructor at the time where I lived.But I always used my Kenpo skills and boxing when it was called for.I worked in a very rough prison as a CO and I weighed only 160lbs. Kenpo and boxing served me well.Kenpo mostly because of the finger strikes,open hands,and elbows.I have studied Aikido and BJJ for a bit.But I have always been a striker.Now after all these years I am back to Kenpo.I decided to start at the beginning and work my way up.Kenpo is a very good art for the streets but it depends on you.Did u put the time in to really learn the art and to train.

[Grass2021hopper]

Hello LuckyKBoxer,

I discovered your post today when was searching for articles about Joseph Simonet. I'm sad to report that Joseph is declining from a health condition and his daughter is raising money to help with his medical bills. As you might be aware of, Joseph has an 8-year-old son named Joseph.

In response to one of your questions, "Is Kenpo as taught in general taught the most efficient and best way possible? are our sets and forms and drills the best possible? or are there other sets, drills, and ways to practice that would be more efficient?" I think that it depends on how "best way" is defined. I started out in Kenpo in 1967 when I was a kid. I attended a few of the adult classes and we had to do a lot of calisthenics.
The school closed down and it wasn't until after college that I returned to Kenpo at a school in North Hollywood where we spent most of the time practicing the Kenpo techniques. When testing was coming up, we practiced the forms. I think Joseph Simonet at that time was already experimenting with other martial arts at that time and he was a 6th or 7th degree black belt in the Tracy system. I purchased almost of his DVDs over the years, including one he did on Kenpo. That DVD included techniques and drills.

As you know, Ed Parker himself discarded much of what he had learned from his teacher. There is a quote from Ed that he retained a small portion (I forgot the percentage) and created a new system of his own. I think much of it was done for marketing reasons as Ed was an excellent promoter and business man. Bruce Lee had also discarded much of what he had learned and branched out to explore other arts. In fact, I think it was Bruce who said that when you row a boat boat across the river, you abandon the boat because it already got you to the other side and already served its purpose. Bruce Lee's friend, Dan Inosanto, is a good example of one who moved on to explore new martial arts. There is an interesting YouTube video by Chuck Sullivan who recalled the time when Bruce Lee walked into Ed Parker's Pasadena school to observe the class. After it was over, Bruce commented to Chuck how one of the techniques would not work very well. Chuck was blown away by the comment because it seemed like blasphemy. However, when Chuck listened to Bruce's explanation, he was deeply impressed and learned to think independently about the martial arts.

I don't think Ed Parker thought that Kenpo was set in stone. Ed had studied with William Chow in Hawaii. Chow had studied with James Mitose who learned his art in Japan. It seemed very much like Japanese karate but apparently William Chow added some Chinese Kung Fu to it. Chow taught Ed Parker the Kenpo techniques, which Ed wrote down on 3 x 5 inch cards. Chow had many other students in Hawaii, many of whom trained in Kajukenbo. The Tracy brothers were among Ed Parker's first first black belts. One or both of them visited Hawaii to train in Kenpo to compare and see which version was authentic. There was also a Kung Fu teacher from San Francisco who collaborated with Ed Parker on a book and who helped Ed create one or more of the Kenpo forms. I think The Tracy brothers, Chuck Sullivan, and some of the early black belt students helped Ed create some of the other Kenpo forms. Ed Parker's Kenpo was evolving just as everything else does.

Even Chuck Norris studied BJJ and Joe Lewis studied boxing. Now that we use Microsoft's Windows 10, does that mean that we discarded the DOS operating system? I think that all martial arts have to evolve sooner or later. Bruce Lee's famous quote was, "Absorb what is useful. Discard what is not. Add what is uniquely your own."

I think it was around 1990 when the UFC started out with their old format of pitting martial artists against each other to see which martial art was best. None of the traditional martial arts did very well. At first, it seemed that BJJ was superior to the other arts, but soon after that it seemed that wrestling was as effective or more effective than BJJ, especially when combined with boxing training. Since then, a lot of people have discarded the martial art that they started out in. Even the Gracie brothers who originally learned Japanese Judo, added and modified it and developed their own art.

One thing I realized is that the "best" way of training involves full contact, the ability to take a punch, experience pain, and risk injury. The general public, including women, children, and most men are not willing to risk getting injured while training and martial arts schools probably can't get insurance for those kinds of things.

Although Kenpo was not the most effective way to win every fight and beat up the other guy, it was a great way to develop good character and enjoy the camaraderie of the people who were involved.

I really enjoyed Joseph Simonet's instructional video's. In fact, I still have some of them stored in the cloud. I think he represents the Ed Parker/Joe Lewis/Bruce Lee/Benny the Jet generation (pre UFC). I enjoy watching the UFC as much as anyone, but now that I'm getting older, it seems that my martial arts days are behind me as a practitioner. Many of the big names in Karate have passed on or had surgeries to their knees or hips. I might look into Tai Chi.

In and article in the February 2011 Issue of Inside Kung fu Magazine, Joseph Simonet says "I challenged their existential foundation. I discarded Kenpo after 35 years even though I achieved a ninth-degree Black Belt."

I posted this on another Tracy's friendly forums and did not get much bite on it.
It seemed to me that the majority of people on the board had to much respect for Joseph Simonet to really address the comment.
They said they respected him, and he earned his place, and no matter what he does he can't simply discard his kenpo... blah blah blah.
I got the impression that most people were not willing to stir the pot so to speak.
there were a couple comments about it being about business, which I honestly believe.
But the thing that struck me the most is that this seems to me anyways that he has discarded the ways that kenpo is taught in the Tracys system, and has changed how he approaches it.
My question that I pose is..
IS Kenpo as taught in general taught the most efficient and best way possible?
are our sets and forms and drills the best possible?
or is there other sets, drills, and ways to practice that would be more efficient?
I think that the question is a tough one to answer for a few reasons.
1st. level of instructors teaching varies so widely.
2nd students in general are not exposed to several different ways to work on the art to compare and contrast. I would be surprised if more then 20% of all American Kenpo students crosstrain in another art, or work with any style outside their own.
they simply dont have the time or interest to do so. I think its a very small group that puts their most into training. out of the remaining 20% that do crosstrain to some degree I would be surprised if more then 1 or 2% train seriously or regularly enough to accomplish a high level in any other arts.

so how would we know that our sets and forms and drill and techniques are the best vehicle to improve and teach our Kenpo?

I think that we are going to have different answers, if everyone is completely honest, ranging from the standard.. Kenpo has everything, is everything and answers everything as it is answers.... to the Kenpo has alot but can be supplemented by other arts.... to the Kenpo is hurting and needs alot of help..
what I am curious about is if you have explored some of the drills, and options other arts have to offer and used them while working on your kenpo and if you have found them to be more efficient, or less efficient in developing skillsets and teaching.

Also is anyone here familiar with what Joseph Simonet has introduced to teach these skillsets in place of the traditional Kenpo curriculum?
Or is it all marketing and is Joseph Simonet simply doing everything he originally did and just saying this for marketing reasons?

[sumdumguy]

Hello LuckyKBoxer,

I discovered your post today when was searching for articles about Joseph Simonet. I'm sad to report that Joseph is declining from a health condition and his daughter is raising money to help with his medical bills. As you might be aware of, Joseph has an 8-year-old son named Joseph.

In response to one of your questions, "Is Kenpo as taught in general taught the most efficient and best way possible? are our sets and forms and drills the best possible? or are there other sets, drills, and ways to practice that would be more efficient?" I think that it depends on how "best way" is defined. I started out in Kenpo in 1967 when I was a kid. I attended a few of the adult classes and we had to do a lot of calisthenics.
The school closed down and it wasn't until after college that I returned to Kenpo at a school in North Hollywood where we spent most of the time practicing the Kenpo techniques. When testing was coming up, we practiced the forms. I think Joseph Simonet at that time was already experimenting with other martial arts at that time and he was a 6th or 7th degree black belt in the Tracy system. I purchased almost of his DVDs over the years, including one he did on Kenpo. That DVD included techniques and drills.

As you know, Ed Parker himself discarded much of what he had learned from his teacher. There is a quote from Ed that he retained a small portion (I forgot the percentage) and created a new system of his own. I think much of it was done for marketing reasons as Ed was an excellent promoter and business man. Bruce Lee had also discarded much of what he had learned and branched out to explore other arts. In fact, I think it was Bruce who said that when you row a boat boat across the river, you abandon the boat because it already got you to the other side and already served its purpose. Bruce Lee's friend, Dan Inosanto, is a good example of one who moved on to explore new martial arts. There is an interesting YouTube video by Chuck Sullivan who recalled the time when Bruce Lee walked into Ed Parker's Pasadena school to observe the class. After it was over, Bruce commented to Chuck how one of the techniques would not work very well. Chuck was blown away by the comment because it seemed like blasphemy. However, when Chuck listened to Bruce's explanation, he was deeply impressed and learned to think independently about the martial arts.

I don't think Ed Parker thought that Kenpo was set in stone. Ed had studied with William Chow in Hawaii. Chow had studied with James Mitose who learned his art in Japan. It seemed very much like Japanese karate but apparently William Chow added some Chinese Kung Fu to it. Chow taught Ed Parker the Kenpo techniques, which Ed wrote down on 3 x 5 inch cards. Chow had many other students in Hawaii, many of whom trained in Kajukenbo. The Tracy brothers were among Ed Parker's first first black belts. One or both of them visited Hawaii to train in Kenpo to compare and see which version was authentic. There was also a Kung Fu teacher from San Francisco who collaborated with Ed Parker on a book and who helped Ed create one or more of the Kenpo forms. I think The Tracy brothers, Chuck Sullivan, and some of the early black belt students helped Ed create some of the other Kenpo forms. Ed Parker's Kenpo was evolving just as everything else does.

Even Chuck Norris studied BJJ and Joe Lewis studied boxing. Now that we use Microsoft's Windows 10, does that mean that we discarded the DOS operating system? I think that all martial arts have to evolve sooner or later. Bruce Lee's famous quote was, "Absorb what is useful. Discard what is not. Add what is uniquely your own."

I think it was around 1990 when the UFC started out with their old format of pitting martial artists against each other to see which martial art was best. None of the traditional martial arts did very well. At first, it seemed that BJJ was superior to the other arts, but soon after that it seemed that wrestling was as effective or more effective than BJJ, especially when combined with boxing training. Since then, a lot of people have discarded the martial art that they started out in. Even the Gracie brothers who originally learned Japanese Judo, added and modified it and developed their own art.

One thing I realized is that the "best" way of training involves full contact, the ability to take a punch, experience pain, and risk injury. The general public, including women, children, and most men are not willing to risk getting injured while training and martial arts schools probably can't get insurance for those kinds of things.

Although Kenpo was not the most effective way to win every fight and beat up the other guy, it was a great way to develop good character and enjoy the camaraderie of the people who were involved.

I really enjoyed Joseph Simonet's instructional video's. In fact, I still have some of them stored in the cloud. I think he represents the Ed Parker/Joe Lewis/Bruce Lee/Benny the Jet generation (pre UFC). I enjoy watching the UFC as much as anyone, but now that I'm getting older, it seems that my martial arts days are behind me as a practitioner. Many of the big names in Karate have passed on or had surgeries to their knees or hips. I might look into Tai Chi.

I am saddened to hear of Mr. Simonet's condition and health, I have often and even recently enjoyed his videos and interpretations of the arts. He has done some great work in the arts in my opinion. Salute to him and I will keep him in my thoughts and prayers.

Salute!!!

[DRANKIN]

I might look into Tai Chi.

I spent a few weeks on Tai Chi a few years back. Compared to what I'm used to in martial arts training, and what you may be used to, you might find yoga to be more fulfilling. The teacher seemed competent but there is very little context to the motion and it just became a memory exercise. Not sure what I was expecting but I was disappointed. lol

[flying crane]

I spent a few weeks on Tai Chi a few years back. Compared to what I'm used to in martial arts training, and what you may be used to, you might find yoga to be more fulfilling. The teacher seemed competent but there is very little context to the motion and it just became a memory exercise. Not sure what I was expecting but I was disappointed. lol

That is unfortunate but not surprising. The teachers who really understand Taiji and who can guide your training as an effective martial art, are few and far between. For most, it is just gentle exercise.