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Thread: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

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    Default Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    OK, another variation on the responsibility themes we have going.

    Are martial artists morally or ethically responsible to help others in need. I.e. nurses and doctors are required to stop at an accident.

    If/when/how do you get involved?

    Some scenerios: obviously one sided fight, verbal abuse/threats, disruptive drunk with potential vilence

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    I feel that since most MA's preach character development then yes, you should. But helping others is not limited to MA. I personally feel any ethical person should help out a fellow human being.

    You must consider how you will help or your level of involvment though. I would not suggest jumping into a major violent dispute where you could get injured if you can avoid it. Unless someones life is immanently and obviously at risk, call the police, wait for them to arrive, and observe in case they need a witness.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Lightbulb Moral/Ethical Responsibilities

    Quote Originally Posted by gakusei
    OK, another variation on the responsibility themes we have going.

    Are martial artists morally or ethically responsible to help others in need. I.e. nurses and doctors are required to stop at an accident.

    If/when/how do you get involved?

    Some scenerios: obviously one sided fight, verbal abuse/threats, disruptive drunk with potential vilence

    Well, there is no singular set of morals or ethics, either for martial artists or any other group. Each person's sense of morality will be different from everyone else's. That's inherently a product of your upbringing, culture, personal ideals, etc.

    Every person who replies on this thread is likely to have differing ideas of what is appropriate behavior for them. However, this has little to no bearing on anyone else's behavior. Applying one's sense of morality to any issue is a very personal decision, requiring plenty of forethought.

    Now, the real reason I replied to this particular post is to correct a popular misconception. Nurses, doctors, and other medical professionals are NOT required to stop at accident sites. I'm writing as a physician, and there has never been any such rule or requirement of which I am aware. In fact, the AMA Code of Ethics recognizes the right of physicians to refuse service to anyone (except for certain emergency situations, while the physician is on duty in a medical facility). Furthermore, as a result of people's increasing tendency to file lawsuits at the drop of a hat, many/most physicians choose NOT to stop at accident sites, for fear of any untoward legal responsibility.

    With that being said, I'll admit that I have stopped to assist in emergency/accident situations. I've done this, not out of any sense of ethical responsibility imposed upon me by my profession, but rather because that's how I was raised by my parents. I simply felt I could help in those particular instances.

    Out of the scenarios you mentioned, only one of them seems to approach a situation in which assistance might be required. "Verbal abuse/threats" and "potential violence" are most likely not going to be legally recognized as justifications for preemptive violence. Of course, this will vary from one jurisdiction to another, but getting physically involved in those particular situations might end up in expensive litigation for the good samaritan. In a scenario where violence is already being employed, and the fight is "one sided," there is better legal footing. But, even then, without being much more specific, it would be difficult to say what the legal ramifications might be. I'd suggest consulting an attorney who has knowledge of your local jurisprudence. (In fact, this is probably a good idea for every martial arts school. It wouldn't hurt to have discussed the nature of self-defense in a formal manner.)

    MH
    Man has only those rights he can defend.

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    You're right about being concerned with litigation. We should change our national anthem to "Boy named SUE!" LOL.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    Depends. I stop at vehicle accidents frequently but it's not because of MA. I'm not required to stop but if I do, I have some protection under the law. I think that if you view martial arts in the traditional sense, then you should feel a certain obligation to help others but I also think you should have that feeling just because you're a good person.

    As for stepping into a potential violent situation, you have to be extremely careful. If an altercation is between and man and a woman, and it turns out to be a domestic dispute, you could find both of them turning on you. That guy yelling at hitting the woman in the parking lot could be her pimp and you're getting involved could get you shot. You have to read the situation before you jump in, the result could just make things worse, or put your safety in jeopardy.

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    True that! Did you know most police officers are killed responding to domestic disputes than any other type of call?

    In regards to pimps...check out the below link and click on "Street Tested."

    http://www.theakko.com/AKKOClips.htm
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    We can try and help but unless we are struck upon than we can do nothing. We are not obligated to help anyone other than ourselves, family and friends. But it depends on the situation an how you react.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    have several friends and a sister who are Lawyers and I have discussed this with them.

    A while back there was instituded a "Good Samaritan law" that protects people from being sued.

    Example and I think this is where it came from was someone was choaking on food and a patron gave them the Heimlik saving their life and breaking a rib in the process. So the guy who was saved tried to sue him.

    It failed.

    That said.. it would likely depend on how much force was used and the siuation being stopped.

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    I feel if you are a sencable person, you are obligated to help anyone in need no matter what your social status or MA training is, it is just moral value to stop and help.

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    Example and I think this is where it came from was someone was choaking on food and a patron gave them the Heimlik saving their life and breaking a rib in the process. So the guy who was saved tried to sue him.

    .
    They should hold the guy down, break all his ribs, pull one of the ribs out through his abdomen without the benefit of anesthesia, and then shove it down his ungrateful throat and allow him to choke to death like he should have in the first place.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    They should hold the guy down, break all his ribs, pull one of the ribs out through his abdomen without the benefit of anesthesia, and then shove it down his ungrateful throat and allow him to choke to death like he should have in the first place.
    Good lord!! I think he might have cause for litigation then!

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    yea, I know.. but people will be people reguardless of how much they inherantly suck.

    At least it got thrown out and it is sad that they had to make a law protecting people.

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    They should hold the guy down, break all his ribs, pull one of the ribs out through his abdomen without the benefit of anesthesia, and then shove it down his ungrateful throat and allow him to choke to death like he should have in the first place.
    I knew there was a reason I like you you.

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    yea, I know.. but people will be people reguardless of how much they inherantly suck.

    At least it got thrown out and it is sad that they had to make a law protecting people.
    Even though it got thrown out my tax dollars got sucked into that black hole known as our judicial system to pay for it.
    Not to mention that someone with a legitimate gripe probably got thier court date pushed back because tubby can't figure out how to chew his food.
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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    I love that clip. Dumb***.

    The Good Samaritan law protects you as long as the aid you render is within your scope of training and you acted in a manner a reasonable person with your training. A lay person doing a heimlich and breaking a rib has no problem. A lay person using a pair of salad tongs to remove the object is risking liability.

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca
    I love that clip. Dumb***.

    The Good Samaritan law protects you as long as the aid you render is within your scope of training and you acted in a manner a reasonable person with your training. A lay person doing a heimlich and breaking a rib has no problem. A lay person using a pair of salad tongs to remove the object is risking liability.
    So, since using my fist to interupt a guys breathing and taking his legs out from under him because he is beating up a kid or someone who is not able to defend themself is within my scope of training I should be all good

    Even though it got thrown out my tax dollars got sucked into that black hole known as our judicial system to pay for it.
    Not to mention that someone with a legitimate gripe probably got thier court date pushed back because tubby can't figure out how to chew his food.
    I know and I agree. However, I have to look at it as a system that allows the common person to be able to legaly defend themself in our society when there is a legitimate reason. This means listening to those who are trying to milk the system. You can't have the good without the bad.

    a Taoist would say that you cannot see beautiy without thinking of uglyness to compair it to.

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    I don't think it's a simple as that. I believe everyone should get a fair shake, but the mindset of most Americans today is that the world owes them something. The Judicial system adds to the problem by setting precidents awarding damages above and beyond injuries, or damages for someone's own stupidity.

    Check this link:
    www.stellaawards.com

    Whole list of frivilous lawsuits that will make your head explode! The awards are named after the infamous idiot woman that decided to hold a cup of McDonalds coffee between her legs and then sued them when she got burned! It's coffee. It's hot. If you put it between your legs you deserve the consequences.

    You know, there used to be a concept called "natural selection." I say we reintroduce it to society. IMHO- =) "Why no...that's not a plastic bag sir, it's a new fangled Halloween mask. Sure...try it on. Here, let me help."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Are MA'rs morally responsbile to help others

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    So, since using my fist to interupt a guys breathing and taking his legs out from under him because he is beating up a kid or someone who is not able to defend themself is within my scope of training I should be all good
    Uhhh...

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