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Thread: When do you stop?

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    Default When do you stop?

    As Kenpoist, most of us stress that our art is geared towards self-defense. Our focus is on surviving and/or protecting our loved ones from violent encounters.

    I have an ethical question for you. If faced with a "violent encounter" at what point do you stop "Kenpo-ing" your attacker? =)

    When the opportunity to escape presents itself?

    When the attacker(s) is disarmed?

    When the attacker(s) is disabled or uncouncious?

    When the attacker(s) verbally asks you to stop?

    When?????

    How do you approach this with your students or if you're not an instructor how were you taught or what are your thoughts on the matter?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    We discuss levels of response. For a "violent encounter", I would assume they are trying to kill or mame so for the threat to be gone it would probably mean, disabled, restrained, or them fleeing.

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by gakusei
    I would assume they are trying to kill or mame ....
    Would you consider it safe to ever assume otherwise?

    Unless you're being attacked by someone you know very well, and even then there may be doubt, can you assume that the person attacking you does not intend to kill or permantly injure you? As a matter of fact, in regards to females, most women are raped by someone they know.

    So that adds another dimension to the question and something further to consider in your response. Can you ever safely assume that an attacker just, let's say..., want's your wallet and nothing else? Or must we always assume the worst? That their intent may be to kill or maim?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    Would you consider it safe to ever assume otherwise?

    Unless you're being attacked by someone you know very well, and even then there may be doubt, can you assume that the person attacking you does not intend to kill or permantly injure you? As a matter of fact, in regards to females, most women are raped by someone they know.

    So that adds another dimension to the question and something further to consider in your response. Can you ever safely assume that an attacker just, let's say..., want's your wallet and nothing else? Or must we always assume the worst? That their intent may be to kill or maim?

    We have always been taught to defend ourself in the situation, But when we get the chance to get out of the situation and away from it,
    Get out! and call the Police,
    Say if they want your Wallet, Just give it to them, everything in it can be replaced.
    Yours Truly
    Kenpo0324

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    I actually had someone demand my wallet once right after I had gone to an ATM machine and withdrew over $600.00. He didn't get it, but at least I was nice enough to call him an ambulance. LOL =)

    Seriously though, the question is not whether your life is worth fighting over your wallet. I sincerely believe the primary concern is your safety, hence the question "When do you stop?"

    At what point do you decide it's safe to stop defending yourself? Gakusei introduced another concern that needs to be considered though. Can you assume that an attacker, any attacker, intends to do less than kill or maim you? Can you afford to be wrong about that? Taking that into consideration how does it affect your answer?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by kenpo0324
    We have always been taught to defend ourself in the situation, But when we get the chance to get out of the situation and away from it,
    Get out! and call the Police,
    Say if they want your Wallet, Just give it to them, everything in it can be replaced.
    1

    There is no descision tree that can be applied to an encounter. I.e. CPR. When you specified violent, that assumes a worst case scenerio. I would consider rape violent. Given a choice, I would call 911. Not always an option is suddent attacks.

    Violent threat can be different for everyone. If I think tossing my money during a robbery will get me out of the situation, no problem. If someone grabs a family member, we'll have a little 'talk'.

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    As Kenpoist, most of us stress that our art is geared towards self-defense. Our focus is on surviving and/or protecting our loved ones from violent encounters.

    I have an ethical question for you. If faced with a "violent encounter" at what point do you stop "Kenpo-ing" your attacker? =)

    When the opportunity to escape presents itself?

    When the attacker(s) is disarmed?

    When the attacker(s) is disabled or uncouncious?

    When the attacker(s) verbally asks you to stop?

    When?????

    How do you approach this with your students or if you're not an instructor how were you taught or what are your thoughts on the matter?
    Ethically I would say when you disarm the attacker. But for me I wouldnot stop until they are unconsious. We really never bring this up in the studio. I will bring it up when I go home.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    You defend yourself until all your concerns are taken care of.

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    As Kenpoist, most of us stress that our art is geared towards self-defense. Our focus is on surviving and/or protecting our loved ones from violent encounters.

    I have an ethical question for you. If faced with a "violent encounter" at what point do you stop "Kenpo-ing" your attacker? =)

    When the opportunity to escape presents itself?

    When the attacker(s) is disarmed?

    When the attacker(s) is disabled or uncouncious?

    When the attacker(s) verbally asks you to stop?

    When?????

    How do you approach this with your students or if you're not an instructor how were you taught or what are your thoughts on the matter?
    I think that Master Sumner summed it up best when he said on his forum that "Your technique, no matter how long it takes, ends when the attacker in on the ground drawn up in a fetal position and finally stops quivering."
    Pat Munk, Judan
    Kenpo Karate

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    The level of response must be appropriate to the situation. If there is absolutely no other way to get out of it, other than nonverbal communication composed of parts of your body impacting the attackers, then the response ends when the other person is no longer able to continue the attack, or when you can get away with the knowledge that he's not going to come after you. This could be as simple as a joint lock while somebody calls the police or as brutal as broken bones, or an end to spontaneous respiration.

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Drowning Pool said it best "Let the bodies hit the floor". I stop when they hit the ground, that doesn't mean they are near death or anything just that they can not keep going at this time.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad
    Drowning "Let the bodies hit the floor."
    That would be a good tournament song
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    If it were me, I would not stop until I was satisfied that he got what he asked for, but that is just me.

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by Pat Munk
    I think that Master Sumner summed it up best when he said on his forum that "Your technique, no matter how long it takes, ends when the attacker in on the ground drawn up in a fetal position and finally stops quivering."
    Now this answer works for me. As a woman, I assume that unless the sicko is grabbing my purse and running away already, he is probably considering raping and/or killing me.

    It would not be safe for me to assume otherwise. I would continue until I was sure the danger to me was passed.

    If the attacker has to be unconscious for me to feel safe, then so be it. I don't have any problem with his pain. He shouldn't have attacked me in the first place.

    I also want him to think twice before he attacks anyone again. And when the police arrive, I'll bat my eyes and look perplexed at his injuries.

    --Amy
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    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    I notice several people saying "Call the Police".

    That may work where you are, but not in my part of the world.

    I know someone who called 999 ( that's our 911) when some people were trying to break down his door and they took nearly half an hour to get there.

    For a non-emergency situation that is still urgent expect them to get to you in 24 hours or so. For a routine report give it a week.

    Les
    I'm only here to learn

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    It's interesting that some of you state your decision would also be based on when you feel the attacker has been punished enough. That had not really occured to me before.

    That throws another ethical curve into the mix. What gives you the right to do anything other than defend yourself? Does defending yourself include the right to punish your attacker? Most state laws would disagree.

    Does this added consideration affect anyone's previous responses? Do you also feel you have the right to punish in addition to simply defending?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    I can only really comment from experiance.

    I have only been attacked once. I took the time to try and talk him down, explaining that I was a trained fighter etc..etc...

    He attacked me and I had no other choice but to hurt him.

    I stopped when I considered him no longer a threat. It just happend to be when he was curled up on the floor blinded by tears and unable to breath. (headbutt to the center of his face and a front thrust kick to his solar plexus.)

    No more.. no less. Did he deserve more? Probibly... he came after me after knocking out my friend, his ex GF. I found out about that after his friends came in and carried him out. But my greater concern at that time was taking care of my friend and making sure she was ok.

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    The punishment question doesn't change my response.

    If someone attacks me or someone with me, they are just looking for pain. Having never been attacked, I can't honestly say how well I'd react under that sort of pressure, but I'd like to think I would be able to protect myself. And by protect, I mean the whole slobbering and crying on the floor thing (them, not me). Maybe, maybe not, but I certainly have to have that attitude.

    If I project the attitude that 'if you touch me, I'll kill you', then the chances of it happening drop considerably.

    --Amy
    The New Kenpo Continuum Book is now accepting submissions for volume 2. Our fabulous, ever-changing website is Sacramento Kenpo Karate.
    I'm a member of the Universal Life Church and the ULC Seminary. I'm also a Sacramento Wedding Minister and Disc Jockey
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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.

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    Default Re: When do you stop?

    Quote Originally Posted by gakusei
    Better to be tried by 12 then carried by 6.
    LOL, one of my favorite sayings.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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