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Thread: Cocking before Blocking:

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    Default Cocking before Blocking:

    Simple question:
    What is the purpose of cocking your arm prior to blocking???

    What about, wasted motion and point of origin??
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Your motion is best from a cocked position. Generaly the space between the notes are best served by either relaxing to the proper point of reference and/or slapckecking (ie cocking). Boxers generaly return to a set position and that is cocking. Cocking can be acheived in three ways: pulling your weapon back, moving your body toward the weapon, or a combination of both. Reguardless, return motion is half your art. That being said you pretty much cover those bases by achoring your elbows, contouring, and study of muscle groupings. Oh and point of origin is only an extension of your ability to attach any given position to a muscle grouping. Cocking just gives you a place to return on your return motion. Its all good.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    We only teach our students to "cock" or "chamber" at the beginning stages of learning (embryonic moves); when applying the concepts of using proper angles and execution.

    "Cocking" can enable an opponent to predict and/or anticipate your next move thereby giving them an advantage. Exagerated moves are really only useful at the beginning stages of learning to help the student understand proper body mechanics.

    IMHO- =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler
    We only teach our students to "cock" or "chamber" at the beginning stages of learning (embryonic moves); when applying the concepts of using proper angles and execution.

    "Cocking" can enable an opponent to predict and/or anticipate your next move thereby giving them an advantage. Exagerated moves are really only useful at the beginning stages of learning to help the student understand proper body mechanics.

    IMHO- =)
    Cocking is the natural return apex of your motion. Exagerated cocking is usefull in teaching primitive to refined.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    I teach cocking in the beginning, but move away from it quickly. We mainly focus on Point Of Origin.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Cocking is primarily emphasized in our sets and forms,
    but after reading KenpoChanger's posts,
    Parting Wings, comes to mind........
    (would this be an example of what your referring to?)
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    People do parting wings a bit different wherever you go, however, if you keep your hands close; the transition from block to strike simply requires your elbow sinks a little lower, and the palm faces away from your body to go from outward motion to hammering motion to thrust. The delay in delayed sword is a cocking gesture... the elbow sinks and your hand palm faces the body. The most common form of cocking is hand position. Distal guides the proximal again. I challange you to find where cocking isn't happening on the return motion.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    I'm with Rob....focus on point of origin. =)

    Perhaps we're not all defining "cocking" in the same way. For instance, I don't consider your hand position in delayed sword prior to executing the sword hand strike "cocking."

    The reason being your hand stays in position after executing the inward block in order to keep the opponent's punching arm in check. To me, when you say "cocking", I think of drawing back prior to executing a strike. That is something that costs you time and allows your opponent the opportunity to telegraph your next move.

    After executing the snap kick you simply settle and execute the sword hand strike from where your hand is all ready positioned (point of origin.)

    Are you refering to the position of the arm itself? By that I mean the fact that after you execute the block your arm is bent and ready (as if "cocked") to deliver the strike?

    -good discussion BTW. =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    I thought "cocking" was drawing back prior to
    striking also, but after KenpoChanger's post
    I looked up "cocking check" in the
    Kenpo Encyclopedia.
    Now I think otherwise.

    I'm trying to understand...................

    The act of anchoring my elbow and pulling my
    hand back after striking is considered "cocking",
    but my hand relaxed in the same position initially
    prior to striking is "point of reference"??

    I see how point of origin doesn't necessarily appy,
    there is only "point of reference" and "cocking",
    which seems to be determined by your weapon being
    in motion or not. (is this correct??)

    Thanks!!
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Point of origin is very related to points of reference. No body says your hand must pull back either. You can maintain a positional check while bringing your body forward. The arm bends and is thus cocked for another thrusting motion. Points of reference are the three main muscles groupings with which you have to choose when moving from point of origin. Again the motion of your body is really what people are talking about when the suggest moving from point of origin over cocking. It is really just another way of looking at the same thing; however, I feel an understanding of cocking can aid your kenpo.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    According to Mr. Parker, we teach cokcing at the beginning to give a point of reference and to start understanding how to put power into movements. As our skill, strength, and coordination improve we move away from the impractical to point of origin.
    Just because you do something one way, does not mean that everyone else does it that way, or that it is even the correct way.

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Quote Originally Posted by Seig
    According to Mr. Parker, we teach cokcing at the beginning to give a point of reference and to start understanding how to put power into movements. As our skill, strength, and coordination improve we move away from the impractical to point of origin.
    Much more appropriately put thatn what I said. Thank you for clarifying.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    It really makes you think.
    I've learned some interesting concepts
    (cocking, point of origin, point of reference, etc...)
    as well as terminology and "point of view" which
    can be very different between people.
    Thanks again!!

    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Quote Originally Posted by Seig
    According to Mr. Parker, we teach cokcing at the beginning to give a point of reference and to start understanding how to put power into movements. As our skill, strength, and coordination improve we move away from the impractical to point of origin.
    So then what is the difference between cocking and a slapcheck? What is the difference from putting your hands up at the sign of danger and a cocking? Please explain why a more deliberate return motion and descision making at the return apex can be an impractical thing.
    Sean
    Last edited by KenpoChanger; 12-31-2005 at 09:03 PM.

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    I think a good example would be an inward thrusting block.

    at white you learn to draw your arm up. fist by the ear and then thrust out, fist crossing in front to the edge of the box of the opposite shoulder.

    If done this way is it a very powerful block and strike.. however in application on the street it would take far too much time to set and then block an incoming attack. thus point of origin is applied to block as quickly as possible.. Why then is it taught this way.

    Well if you think about a totally inexperienced fighter attempting to grasp the concepts of blocking and redirection it is necessary as part of a foundation to over exadurate the lines of movement.

    Does not do allot of good to put an edge on a lump of raw ore... you got to shape it and forge it before it can be cleaned and sharpened.

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    I think a good example would be an inward thrusting block.

    at white you learn to draw your arm up. fist by the ear and then thrust out, fist crossing in front to the edge of the box of the opposite shoulder.

    If done this way is it a very powerful block and strike.. however in application on the street it would take far too much time to set and then block an incoming attack. thus point of origin is applied to block as quickly as possible.. Why then is it taught this way.

    Well if you think about a totally inexperienced fighter attempting to grasp the concepts of blocking and redirection it is necessary as part of a foundation to over exadurate the lines of movement.

    Does not do allot of good to put an edge on a lump of raw ore... you got to shape it and forge it before it can be cleaned and sharpened.
    You will notice however that when you trade punches in sparring, you generaly have a set position for your return motion. You will notice then when working concepts such as opposing forces, your weapons are cocked, compact and ready to fire. Face it your Kenpo is chalked full of cocking motion built right in so you don't have to think about it. Its half your art wheather you know it or not.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    I think a good example would be an inward thrusting block. at white you learn to draw your arm up. fist by the ear and then thrust out, fist crossing in front to the edge of the box of the opposite shoulder. If done this way is it a very powerful block and strike.. however in application on the street it would take far too much time to set and then block an incoming attack. thus point of origin is applied to block as quickly as possible.. Why then is it taught this way.

    Well if you think about a totally inexperienced fighter attempting to grasp the concepts of blocking and redirection it is necessary as part of a foundation to over exadurate the lines of movement. Does not do allot of good to put an edge on a lump of raw ore... you got to shape it and forge it before it can be cleaned and sharpened.
    Chambering vs. cocking (as I understand it- you may call it differently): when you bring your fist to either your ear or waist, or any other reference point, as a seperate move meant only to ready it for a strike, you are chambering. The weapon is cocked in a chamber or any other position from which it can be readily deployed.

    Your example of chambering an inward block at the ear would give a hammering block. From the waist would be thrusting. And you are right, the hammering block is more powerful. But you can take the hammering inward block directly from an extended outward block- a cocked position- and get the same result. No wasted motion. In the beggining, I think we learn chambering/full range of motion so we can see some of these relationships. I like your refining analogy here.

    Another reason for full chambers in some techniques is to get our weapons out of the way but occupied as we learn step by step. Take Deflecting Hammer- after the step back and block, you step drag forward and left pinning check his right elbow. You are in close, steping behind the kicking leg, and if you did not chamber the right fist at your hip it would have trouble clearing for the inward elbow strike. But when you get this technique down with flow, the downward block continues to circle right into the elbow strike. I've been told it should flow through the chamber position, but to me it flows past, not quite through. Doing DF by the numbers, you chamber. But actually running the tech it sort of self cocks as it flows through.

    In this context, I can see merit in both KenpoChangers, and Rob and Seigs point of view. (I quoted Mr. B because it sort of led into my view point)

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Hummm, as I see it.. cocking vs. chambering is really just a matter of semantics, so I am going to not go there.

    Application of chamber in sparing.... Sigh... you had to go there.. now I am forced to sit and actually think about how I spar... thanks allot...

    Seems that the "chambered” position for allot of my hand techniques are almost identical to a shielding position protecting my ribs or head... so it's hard to say that my limb is there as part of the chamber path or keeping my head protected.

    also in combinations... when I follow a jab with a ridge hand it does pass by if not through the chamber position.. but is that because I was taught the chamber position or is it simply the fact that the chamber position resides in the most natural path of movement?

    That leads me to the question of is the chambered position simply a static representation of the center of the most natural path from one position to the execution of the strike or the block.

    As this thread originated in blocking perhaps we should examine that.. thrusting inward is the most extreme example of a cocking position before the block is executed... but even the upper block has a chambering path as it passes up the center line before rotation or more importantly such in the case of the downward block crossing back in front of the groin when you switch from a right to left (or vise versa) which seems to be less of a natural path and more of continual coverage of the groin.

    now that I have started thinking about this I realize that it is far too early.. I have had no coffee.. and my brain is starting to hurt.

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    Hummm, as I see it.. cocking vs. chambering is really just a matter of semantics, so I am going to not go there.
    You're right. But posters here seem to be getting a little tripped up on useing terms differently, so I defined mine at the start.

    That leads me to the question of is the chambered position simply a static representation of the center of the most natural path from one position to the execution of the strike or the block.
    I think this is pretty much the key, as long as you are not including coming to full chamber (as I described the term) as a seperate movement.

    ...thrusting inward is the most extreme example of a cocking position before the block is executed... but even the upper block has a chambering path as it passes up the center line before rotation or more importantly such in the case of the downward block crossing back in front of the groin when you switch from a right to left (or vise versa) which seems to be less of a natural path and more of continual coverage of the groin.
    You can do a thrusting inward block from point of origin, without chambering. Same with all blocks. The upward block does not have to chamber before properly deploying up center and turning out. However, your point about using a minor block to cover while you circle the fist/arm for a solid downward block is a good example of chambering in actual application. But against a kick, your primary defense is to move. The minor block should not even connect, and the major block (the downward block) is mostly to force him to plant at a position of disadvantage. Look at Deflecting Hammer again. The block should turn him a little and drop his foot before he can retract it, and you should "knock his block off" before the foot hits the ground. But, since you first moved off line of the kick, the block was really un-necessary as a defense.

    now that I have started thinking about this I realize that it is far too early.. I have had no coffee.. and my brain is starting to hurt.
    So, in effect, coffee chambers your brain for action? If you awake alert and ready to go, that would be a cocked brain? So morning people move from point of origin, while night stalkers must chamber their witts. Learn something new every dey...

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    Default Re: Cocking before Blocking:

    [quote}"Knock his block off" [/quote]

    Ok, that was funny. LOL!!

    So, in effect, coffee chambers your brain for action? If you awake alert and ready to go, that would be a cocked brain? So morning people move from point of origin, while night stalkers must chamber their witts. Learn something new every dey...
    Well for some the act of bowing to coffee gods is less of a chambering the brain and more of a blocking the impending sidekick of caffeine addition.

    Morning people are obviously some mutant government experiment involving the introduction of the coffee bean into their genetic code.. and much like clowns.. they are kind of scary.

    Night stalkers simply prefer taking a moment to ensure that their witt follow a more classical path rather than the raw (though effective) brutal execution.. just to get to the point.

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