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Thread: Speed Accelerator's

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    Default Speed Accelerator's

    Recently, I was going through threads and someone had posted a "chopping set" from Larry Tatum. The "basic" of the set were the following..

    1) Right inward chop to the neck
    2) Right outward chop to the neck
    3) Right downward chop to the groin
    4) Right inverse chop to the neck (I think that's what it was called)
    5) Right ridgehand to the neck

    My question from watching the video was, that even though Master Tatum was "only" using his right hand to flow, his left hand was very active as well. What was he doing? It looked like he was "slapping" to his right shoulder with his left hand as he did the first strike but I'm not sure what he did after that.

    I have heard that one of the reasons for the slapping is to help increase speed. How and why do you that with your techniques? The reason I brought up the set was to use that as an illustrator so I would understand the references.

    thanks in advance.

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    I've come to appreciate Master Tatum. Those "slaps" with his left hand are there for a reason. It's up to you to figure out 'why'.
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    I know they are not just "slaps" and have a reason. Can you or someone else give some pointers on how to figure it out on my own? I am not a formal student of Kenpo and have no schools in my area to train with.

    Can you give some basic drills or resources to point me in the right direction?

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    This thread and the links contained within may help.

    slap checks
    A black belt covers 2" of your butt. Covering the rest is soley up to you

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    I've come to appreciate Master Tatum. Those "slaps" with his left hand are there for a reason. It's up to you to figure out 'why'.

    I'm sorry but, that's crap! If everyone has to travel the same road to get to a place, how do you ever expect people to make paths to new techniques, principals, or concepts of motion?! I've walked out (as mild mannered as I am) on two different instructors/systems because they offered that as an answer. It is my suspicion that they just didn't have an answer themselves.

    Sorry but, I think it's rediculous to stifel someone's desire to learn by telling them...'you figure it out'.
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by toejoe2k View Post
    I'm sorry but, that's crap! If everyone has to travel the same road to get to a place, how do you ever expect people to make paths to new techniques, principals, or concepts of motion?! I've walked out (as mild mannered as I am) on two different instructors/systems because they offered that as an answer. It is my suspicion that they just didn't have an answer themselves.

    Sorry but, I think it's rediculous to stifel someone's desire to learn by telling them...'you figure it out'.
    I used to feel the same way. It's sort of the "Well.....if you know, then why don't you tell me?"

    I don't feel that way anymore.
    I think that sometimes the best growth a person can have is to figure some of the things out for themselves. Sometimes, the end result of a lesson isn't nearly as important as the process of investigation and analysis that it takes to get there for yourself. Not everything that you gain from developing in the martial arts can be handed too you, some of the best parts you discover along the way. If you're 'told' those things, you could be ripped off of a great and needful experience.... and I know I feel VERY strongly about the things I had to work for, over the things I was simply handed.

    I really don't know if I agree or disagree with Michael that THIS is one of those things that is best if discovered on ones own. Maybe we differ on that. But I respect his thinking behind it.

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by toejoe2k View Post
    I'm sorry but, that's crap! If everyone has to travel the same road to get to a place, how do you ever expect people to make paths to new techniques, principals, or concepts of motion?! I've walked out (as mild mannered as I am) on two different instructors/systems because they offered that as an answer. It is my suspicion that they just didn't have an answer themselves.

    Sorry but, I think it's rediculous to stifel someone's desire to learn by telling them...'you figure it out'.
    Im with Mr. Richardson regarding direction for the student. We all have our own paths to follow, and our exploration leads us to different recources. It is the responsibilty of the student to seek out those whom can provide them with the insight to evolve. It is the responsibilty of the instructors to help them in their journey. So here are a couple of reasons for the slap!!!!!.

    1) it aids in timing.
    2) It provides an audio disruption to the attacker
    3) It activates certian bio-mechanical adjustments
    4) It works as a rebounding platform for returning motion.

    Just some examples.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I used to feel the same way. It's sort of the "Well.....if you know, then why don't you tell me?"

    I don't feel that way anymore.
    I think that sometimes the best growth a person can have is to figure some of the things out for themselves. Sometimes, the end result of a lesson isn't nearly as important as the process of investigation and analysis that it takes to get there for yourself. Not everything that you gain from developing in the martial arts can be handed too you, some of the best parts you discover along the way. If you're 'told' those things, you could be ripped off of a great and needful experience.... and I know I feel VERY strongly about the things I had to work for, over the things I was simply handed.
    So why don't we just do forms/kata with no bunkai, and let students figure it out for themselves? Why do we have tons of jargon, endless analysis, and a pseudo-scientific approach to the martial arts if we aren't going to be clear about what, why, and when we do something?

    Is the process of investigation important? Sure, thats why many kenpo schools require the thesis, or I might ask a question to elicit thought or research, I've even handed out a quiz to the upper belts to get them to investigate. But if someone asks me why and when to do something I'll tell them, my job as an instructor is to make my students as proficient as they can be, as quickly as they can be. Reaching competence in self-defense skills twenty years down the line is fairly useless.

    Nor does my telling a student something take away from their accomplishments, they still have to figure out how to make their body do what they know mentally, a far bigger and more important hurdle than figuring out a "why."

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
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    “He, who will not reason, is a bigot; he, who cannot, is a fool; and he, who dares not, is a slave.”
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Im with Mr. Richardson regarding direction for the student. We all have our own paths to follow, and our exploration leads us to different recources. It is the responsibilty of the student to seek out those whom can provide them with the insight to evolve. It is the responsibilty of the instructors to help them in their journey. So here are a couple of reasons for the slap!!!!!.

    1) it aids in timing.
    2) It provides an audio disruption to the attacker
    3) It activates certian bio-mechanical adjustments
    4) It works as a rebounding platform for returning motion.

    Just some examples.
    Good examples, Mr. Marshall.
    I just think that a lot of people look for the result and skip the process. When you give a beginner an answer without them going through the process of how that answer was reached-it may not "stick". A lot of this art is best learned gradually (i.e. starting with yellow belt material and working your way up). The self-discovery I've found in this art is priceless to me, and I wouldn't want to rob anyone of that.
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    WOw, somwonw ask a simple question to get SLAPPED down.

    maybe he tried to figure it and just can't. being he is new to kenpo. I am not to fimaliar with Master TATUMS VIDEOS, but maybe you can call Master Tatum yourself and just ask him since no one here really knows.

    B Girak
    Academy of Kenpo karate
    Bourbonnais, IL

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by Karate101 View Post
    WOw, somwonw ask a simple question to get SLAPPED down.

    maybe he tried to figure it and just can't. being he is new to kenpo. I am not to fimaliar with Master TATUMS VIDEOS, but maybe you can call Master Tatum yourself and just ask him since no one here really knows.

    B Girak
    Academy of Kenpo karate
    Bourbonnais, IL
    I didn't mean to "slap him down", lol. I posted my first response before knowing that he didn't have an instructor near him. As for no one here knowing, I'd have to say that Mr. Marshall's response was pretty good.
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    Good examples, Mr. Marshall.
    I just think that a lot of people look for the result and skip the process. When you give a beginner an answer without them going through the process of how that answer was reached-it may not "stick". A lot of this art is best learned gradually (i.e. starting with yellow belt material and working your way up). The self-discovery I've found in this art is priceless to me, and I wouldn't want to rob anyone of that.
    Mikael,

    I agree with the self discovery, the question was why it was done, not the physical principles or conceptual ideas behind it. We can answer questions which will aid someone in their search, and fuel their desire to seek out those who can help them. I always enjoy the post of people here on this site. I may not agree with them, however like you I stand behind the words I write. So it is in the best intrest of all not to deny someone who seeks knowledge. Im not saying give them the answer, Im just saying point them in the right direction.

    Your Friend
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by Karate101 View Post
    WOw, somwonw ask a simple question to get SLAPPED down.

    maybe he tried to figure it and just can't. being he is new to kenpo. I am not to fimaliar with Master TATUMS VIDEOS, but maybe you can call Master Tatum yourself and just ask him since no one here really knows.

    B Girak
    Academy of Kenpo karate
    Bourbonnais, IL
    Please understand that your assumption that no one here knows is incorrect.

    The question is at what time do we share information with someone who is new to the art. To provide concepts such as rebounding to someones cirriculum, prior to them having a solid base to build apon is counter productive.

    My Respects
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    So why don't we just do forms/kata with no bunkai, and let students figure it out for themselves? Why do we have tons of jargon, endless analysis, and a pseudo-scientific approach to the martial arts if we aren't going to be clear about what, why, and when we do something?

    Nor does my telling a student something take away from their accomplishments, they still have to figure out how to make their body do what they know mentally, a far bigger and more important hurdle than figuring out a "why."

    Lamont
    Fair enough Lamont. I respect your opinion.

    I'm not saying that I'd keep important information from a student, just that some things that are 'touches' or tips are better gleaned on ones own. The important hows and whys are always shared. (Like Bunkai for Kata) But very minor actions or applications are sometimes, I think, something that diligent and observant students will arrive at one their own. I first got this idea through reading the writings of a couple different Sifu who spoke of the needs for the 'secrets' of their art to be 'stolen' instead of taught. It was an interesting paradigm I think. That the best students set themselves apart because of their diligent observation and analysis...coming to certain conclusions on their own.
    We may just disagree on that. T'sokay with me.

    Please note though also: I didn't say I wouldn't comment on this action. Just giving a 'maybe' on why Michael may have said what he did. After reading through this thread when I got off work (so I could reply) I ALSO discovered that I'd skipped over the part where he says he has no instructor.

    I could not give a better explanation than Mr. Marshall gave you.
    The hand that seems to 'slap' while the other hand is executing some motion, is used exactly as he said. For timing, for a minor distraction that contributes to the overall sensory overload of the attacker, for an auditory cue for the tempo of your motions, for rebounding....employing what Mr. Paul Mills has called "Internal Elastic Recoil"....and for those anatomical adjustment mechanisms that Mr. Marshall mentioned and Dr. Ron Chapel elaborates on in his writings.

    Your Brother
    John



    I do especially like your second paragraph.
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    O.j.t. :d
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    O.j.t. :d
    On the job training? Excellent!
    The "slapping" hand can also be used as a strike, or to clear a path as it checks. Hitting ourselves is partly the simulation of striking thru a target and rebounding off our own body to launch a new strike without wasted effort. It would take more time and strength to stop and restart a strike than it would to take advantage of recoil off of one's self.

    Hemi posted a link definately worth researching.
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    First off, I'd like to extend my apologies to Mikael151 for "twisting off" with such verocity. I should do a better job controlling my hot buttons borne from my own bad experiences and should not suffer those on this thread my own "issues". You have my sincerest apologies, sir.

    I'll not continue the thead drift that I started by further opining on the issue of imparting knowledge vs. fostering self-discovery (sounds like a highschool health class video title put out by Joslin Elders...lol). But, if one were started elsewhere, I'd feel compeled to put in my worhtless .02.

    There are good cases made on both sides of this issue. Thank you each for your wisdom.

    As for the rebounding and other reasons for the "slap", that's good information, gentlemen. Thank you.

    ~Peace
    ~Bill Richardson

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    Forgive everyone everything

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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Bill-
    You have my respect for being humble enough to say "oops, sorry bout that." Takes maturity and humility, and we all need more of that. A sign of a good martial artist in my little book of references.

    __________________________________________________ _______________

    On this issue:
    I like that people who're investigating or just getting deeper into the study of Kenpo seek out "WHY" on even small motions. Making sure that there is a "Reason" for any motion we do is important, I think.

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    John
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Punisher, search this forum and also MartialTalk for the phase "BAM" or go do some reading over at www.martialscienceuniversity.com.

    However you might not get the same answers that you would get if Mr. Tatum gave you an answer to your questions.
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    Default Re: Speed Accelerator's

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    Punisher, search this forum and also MartialTalk for the phase "BAM" or go do some reading over at www.martialscienceuniversity.com.

    However you might not get the same answers that you would get if Mr. Tatum gave you an answer to your questions.
    The answers may be different from many people.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

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