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Thread: Differences in outward blocks

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    Default Differences in outward blocks

    I've got a question about differences in outward blocks.

    I'm currently going over the orange belt DVD for IKCA Kenpo, and they're demonstrating the outward block (and all their standard blocks, actually) as using the little finger side of the arm as the blocking surface. However, I've been watching my daughter perform Short 1, and in fact I watched a lot of people perform it at the Pan American tournament in Miami last weekend, and they appear to the outward block such that the blocking side of the arm is actually the thumb side (hand in a fist, palm facing you). In EPAK or other Kenpo styles is the outward block supposed to be done that way, or is that just something to do with the way its done in the form (in which case I don't understand the point of forms, but that's a topic for another thread).

    TIA,
    jds
    "'The eyes are the groin of the head."

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by bureau13 View Post
    I've got a question about differences in outward blocks.

    I'm currently going over the orange belt DVD for IKCA Kenpo, and they're demonstrating the outward block (and all their standard blocks, actually) as using the little finger side of the arm as the blocking surface. However, I've been watching my daughter perform Short 1, and in fact I watched a lot of people perform it at the Pan American tournament in Miami last weekend, and they appear to the outward block such that the blocking side of the arm is actually the thumb side (hand in a fist, palm facing you). In EPAK or other Kenpo styles is the outward block supposed to be done that way, or is that just something to do with the way its done in the form (in which case I don't understand the point of forms, but that's a topic for another thread).

    TIA,
    jds

    What you first described is an extended outward block. In short 1 extended outward blocks are not used.
    "Fall seven times, stand up eight." Japanese proverb

    "I've seen some cats do some crazy stuff like bending swords with their necks and breaking flaming bricks... thats great and all but can they fight?" *shrugs* Moses Powell

    -Hank Colado

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoHank View Post
    What you first described is an extended outward block. In short 1 extended outward blocks are not used.
    So why would we use the vertical outward block as opposed to the extended outward block in Short form 1?
    Brad Marshall SP
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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the outward block and extended outward block both block with the same arm surface in the IKCA orange belt DVD, the only real difference being the extended block is, well, extended

    jds

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoHank View Post
    What you first described is an extended outward block. In short 1 extended outward blocks are not used.
    "'The eyes are the groin of the head."

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    bureau13 ..

    We have to different types of outward blocks.

    The Vertical Outward Block

    The Extended Outward Block

    The Vertical Outward Block is what you see in Short Form 1. As you describe, the 'blocking' side of the arm appears to be the thumb side. The forearm should be vertical when veiwed from the front, or from the side. The block should extend directly infront of the shoulder.

    The Extended Outward Block is what you are describing from the DVD. The 'blocking' side appears to be the pinky side of the forearm. This block is called an Extended Outward Block, because it is extended in two directions from the Vertical Outward Block. The block should be angled slightly forward from vertical when veiwed from the side; thus having greater forward reach. The block should also be extended a bit further to the outside of the practitioner's body; thus having more width.

    In our school, we say ... "The Extended Outward Block is the block that we use". Although this phrase is a bit coy. The Vertical Outward Block does not have the strength of the Extended Outward Block. The Vertical Outward Block does get used, but primarly as a check.

    Think about the left hand in Twirling Wings. Your left should be in a Vertical Outward Block position, as you torque your body for the Right Inward Elbow Strike. This arm position checks, and twists the attacker, to clear the way for the strike.

    MARSHALLS KENPO asks a good question .... if we don't use the Vertical Outward Block (as a block), why do we have it in Short Form 1. The answer I have been given is 'tradition'. We keep this block in this form to preserve the early heritage of our system.


    Concerning the DVD ... if the disk is describing the Vertical and Extended Outward Blocks with the palm facing the same direction, there is an error on the disk. Vertical = Palm facing you // Extended = Palm facing away.

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by bureau13 View Post
    Unless my eyes are deceiving me, the outward block and extended outward block both block with the same arm surface in the IKCA orange belt DVD, the only real difference being the extended block is, well, extended

    jds
    I believe the key lies in the transition from the VOB to the EOB. Something from a previous post:

    I believe its important to recognize to understand the anatomical advantages and disadvantages of each, that should answer where and why they show up.

    The VOB (Vertical Outward Block) operates in width only. The EOB (Extended Outward Block) operates in width and depth. The VOB is a transitional move for the EOB; the EOB is executed from the VOB.

    The VOB has little structural capacity beyond the framework of the Outer Rim, the edge of which is defined by the vertical line from the shoulder to the hip. The VOB is structurally weak because he deltoid is the only muscle group it has to deal with forces executed in the width zone. The EOB has little execution power before it gets to the shoulder, once again only fueled by the deltoid. Executing the EOB from the VOB allows the (much larger) lattissimus group to come into play.

    My take anyway. One way to understand the alignment and muscle groups at play is to perform the blocks against resistance. Look forward to other responses.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    bureau13 ..

    We have to different types of outward blocks.

    The Vertical Outward Block

    The Extended Outward Block

    The Vertical Outward Block is what you see in Short Form 1. As you describe, the 'blocking' side of the arm appears to be the thumb side. The forearm should be vertical when veiwed from the front, or from the side. The block should extend directly infront of the shoulder.

    The Extended Outward Block is what you are describing from the DVD. The 'blocking' side appears to be the pinky side of the forearm. This block is called an Extended Outward Block, because it is extended in two directions from the Vertical Outward Block. The block should be angled slightly forward from vertical when veiwed from the side; thus having greater forward reach. The block should also be extended a bit further to the outside of the practitioner's body; thus having more width.

    In our school, we say ... "The Extended Outward Block is the block that we use". Although this phrase is a bit coy. The Vertical Outward Block does not have the strength of the Extended Outward Block. The Vertical Outward Block does get used, but primarly as a check.

    Think about the left hand in Twirling Wings. Your left should be in a Vertical Outward Block position, as you torque your body for the Right Inward Elbow Strike. This arm position checks, and twists the attacker, to clear the way for the strike.

    MARSHALLS KENPO asks a good question .... if we don't use the Vertical Outward Block (as a block), why do we have it in Short Form 1. The answer I have been given is 'tradition'. We keep this block in this form to preserve the early heritage of our system.


    Concerning the DVD ... if the disk is describing the Vertical and Extended Outward Blocks with the palm facing the same direction, there is an error on the disk. Vertical = Palm facing you // Extended = Palm facing away.

    Great post.

    In all the forms three things happen.
    1) They review something old
    2) They cover something New
    3) They introduce us to something brand new

    The vertical outward block is a minor factor block which will be used in Long form 1
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    So why would we use the vertical outward block as opposed to the extended outward block in Short form 1?
    I'd venture to say that its' the same reason many chamber their hands at the hips - tradition and convention. The EOB and VOB both have their place, and the reasons for their use are specific. Short 1 is for learning and training, not for application (in its entirety). Much as we'd like to pull all sorts of neeto advanced stuff out of Short 1, its a basic form done in a certain way because, really, "its always been done that way" - ayup, tradition and consistency. Using an EOB there has no more or less applicability because in its essence it is not for application anyway.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Concerning the DVD ... if the disk is describing the Vertical and Extended Outward Blocks with the palm facing the same direction, there is an error on the disk. Vertical = Palm facing you // Extended = Palm facing away.
    Just a point of clarification...

    The IKCA does not use the vertical outward block (thumb side out) due to it's inherent structural weakness.

    Respects,
    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    www.trianglekenpo.com

    "I know Kenpo!" "Cool... do you know how to use it?"

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    So why would we use the vertical outward block as opposed to the extended outward block in Short form 1?
    The form emphasizes proper positioning on the first half of the outward extented, which just happens to be the outward block. You may use either, but if you are thinking in terms of circles, they both should appear.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    So why would we use the vertical outward block as opposed to the extended outward block in Short form 1?

    That's a good question, short 1 is a beginner's form that drills basics into the student. How to retreat from an attack and block. A properly executed vertical outward block is effective against a punch.

    When I was a beginner, I was taught a drill called blocks 1 through 8. It was just the basic blocks with both hands, upward, outward, downward and inward. It was only natural to be taught a form with these blocks. As time passed I was taught blocking set with the extended outward block. The 'cleaning' concept was taught to me, double factor etc...those were incorporated in the forms I learned.

    In short, I did short 1 with the vertical outward block because that was the only outward block available to me at the time.
    "Fall seven times, stand up eight." Japanese proverb

    "I've seen some cats do some crazy stuff like bending swords with their necks and breaking flaming bricks... thats great and all but can they fight?" *shrugs* Moses Powell

    -Hank Colado

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    I'd venture to say that its' the same reason many chamber their hands at the hips - tradition and convention. The EOB and VOB both have their place, and the reasons for their use are specific. Short 1 is for learning and training, not for application (in its entirety). Much as we'd like to pull all sorts of neeto advanced stuff out of Short 1, its a basic form done in a certain way because, really, "its always been done that way" - ayup, tradition and consistency. Using an EOB there has no more or less applicability because in its essence it is not for application anyway.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF
    What some call Short One is absolutely application driven. Every aspect is driven by proper function. Every form up to and including Short Three are this way. Everything after that was created for competition and are seriously in part anatomically flawed.
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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    Just a point of clarification...

    The IKCA does not use the vertical outward block (thumb side out) due to it's inherent structural weakness.

    Respects,
    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    The vertical outward block erformed correctly is structural as sound as its extended version. It also has width AND depth structure beyond measure. The problem lies in the understanding of "how" the blocks should be performed sir. Absent the proper Index mechanism, all blocks are relatively weak.
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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    The vertical outward block erformed correctly is structural as sound as its extended version. It also has width AND depth structure beyond measure. The problem lies in the understanding of "how" the blocks should be performed sir. Absent the proper Index mechanism, all blocks are relatively weak.
    I'm sincerely trying to understand where you're going with this. The only way the vertical outward gains structure (as far as I can tell) is to be deployed at a 45 degree angle forward and about 1.5-2" beyond the shoulder line. This feels like a good "set" for the block. Two points/questions: 1) It seems that if your block needs to be in that position, turning it palm down makes it even stronger and protects the radial nerve, so why do it palm up? and 2) It seems to be merely an extended outward with the palm up, not anywhere close to a "vertical" block.

    Trying to follow you.

    Respects,
    Bill Parsons
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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Short form one takes the major factor blocks and some basic foot work and stances we learn as beginers ( note: something old. ie basics) and places them in motion together ( something new) and introduces us to something brand new ( the minor factor blocks) found in Long one.

    In turn Long one reviews something old ( short 1) it covers something new ( block and counter) and introduces us to something brand new ( moving forward) I know there are other things that the forms teach, however you will see this concept followed.
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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    So why would we use the vertical outward block as opposed to the extended outward block in Short form 1?
    The reason sir are both practical, and historical. Originally what is now called Short One in kenpo Karate was not a stand alone form. Originally it was a part of what is now called Short two, and the One flowed into the Two. Once this form was cut in half and given the "short" designations, it opened up the creation of the "Longs."

    The extended outward block was taught in a blocking exercise and drill taken from the Chinese Arts known as the "Star Block" which morped into a "Blocking Set."

    The suggestion that some blocks are only done for tradition in the form would be incorrect, however if the statement was made about certain aspects of forms after Short Three, than I would agree sir.

    Its about knowledge level. As an engineer sir, you know all apects have their place and application. When taught properly, there are no throw-a-way or traditional movements without practical application purposes.

    I've heard more than one now 10th suggests the vertical Outward Bloack id disfunctional. They are wrong. There is also what is termed an "Extended Vertical Block" as well.

    If your knowledge level finds no value in a vertical block other than tradition, than you shouldn't be doing it - until someone can share with you "how" to make it work.

    Mr. Parker felt that tradition had it place, but tradition should never over ride practical application and common sense logic in a "Self Defense System." Traditional Systems are another story with deep roots in promoting culturals as well.
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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    I'm sincerely trying to understand where you're going with this. The only way the vertical outward gains structure (as far as I can tell) is to be deployed at a 45 degree angle forward and about 1.5-2" beyond the shoulder line. This feels like a good "set" for the block. Two points/questions: 1) It seems that if your block needs to be in that position, turning it palm down makes it even stronger and protects the radial nerve, so why do it palm up? and 2) It seems to be merely an extended outward with the palm up, not anywhere close to a "vertical" block.

    Trying to follow you.

    Respects,
    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    Well sir, consider the vertical block from a right neutral bow, the elbow height approximates that of the lead shoulder height. The palm of the hand is facing the executor and the forearm is actually "vertical" as its descriptor with the back of the hand facing directly forward to 12 o'clock.

    Extreme structural integrity in depth (12/6) and height may be achieved rather eaasily.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Thumbs up Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Excellent discussion guys!
    "Fall seven times, stand up eight." Japanese proverb

    "I've seen some cats do some crazy stuff like bending swords with their necks and breaking flaming bricks... thats great and all but can they fight?" *shrugs* Moses Powell

    -Hank Colado

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Thanks everyone, this is all great info. It appears that the IKCA methodology has replaced the VOB with a plain old "OB" (they do have an outward block that is not the extended outwared block). That's probably why they have a blocking form for orange belt that is similar to, but not the same as, Short 1.

    Something else I noticed at the competition...my daughter was taught Short 1 as inward-inward-outward-outward-upward-upward-downward-downward-end. Most of the people there were then repeating that sequence from the other side. Maybe Short 1 and Really Short 1? The judges seemed OK with it either way.

    jds
    "'The eyes are the groin of the head."

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    Default Re: Differences in outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by bureau13 View Post
    Thanks everyone, this is all great info. It appears that the IKCA methodology has replaced the VOB with a plain old "OB" (they do have an outward block that is not the extended outwared block). That's probably why they have a blocking form for orange belt that is similar to, but not the same as, Short 1.

    Something else I noticed at the competition...my daughter was taught Short 1 as inward-inward-outward-outward-upward-upward-downward-downward-end. Most of the people there were then repeating that sequence from the other side. Maybe Short 1 and Really Short 1? The judges seemed OK with it either way.

    jds

    The form ends at the end of the first 'side'. Most people continue on the other side to mirror the motion.

    Hey, you are in my neck of the woods, where does your daughter train, if I may ask?
    "Fall seven times, stand up eight." Japanese proverb

    "I've seen some cats do some crazy stuff like bending swords with their necks and breaking flaming bricks... thats great and all but can they fight?" *shrugs* Moses Powell

    -Hank Colado

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