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Thread: Should females be treated differenty than males?

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    Default Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Should thye be held to the same phyical standards?
    For that matter, what about older students?

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differently than males?

    Well, yes and no.

    As a woman, I can train hard and do weights and do lots of kicking and punching, but I am never going to be as strong as most of the post-pubescent males, nor will I be able to take as much of a hit as most of them either.

    We should be expected to train as hard and as strong as we are physically able.

    I know I'm not as strong as the guys, but I'm not a wimp either. I pride myself on being able to take a hit and I most certainly can make the guys wince (unless they're just humoring me), but I know I'm not physically as strong as the men and I wouldn't want anyone I'm working with to think I was. Too easy for me to get hurt.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Should females be treated differently than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    Well, yes and no.

    As a woman, I can train hard and do weights and do lots of kicking and punching, but I am never going to be as strong as most of the post-pubescent males, nor will I be able to take as much of a hit as most of them either.

    We should be expected to train as hard and as strong as we are physically able.

    I know I'm not as strong as the guys, but I'm not a wimp either. I pride myself on being able to take a hit and I most certainly can make the guys wince (unless they're just humoring me), but I know I'm not physically as strong as the men and I wouldn't want anyone I'm working with to think I was. Too easy for me to get hurt.

    --Amy
    The hardest I have ever been hit was by a lady.
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    Default Re: Should females be treated differently than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    The hardest I have ever been hit was by a lady.
    Ditto.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differently than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    The hardest I have ever been hit was by a lady.
    That weren't no lady. lol.


    We may not be as strong, but I think we're twice as mean.
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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    I think students should be treated in accordance with their individual abilities, regardless of age, or gender.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    I think in training as long as there is respect for one an another then gender should be a non consideration. If you are a good partner going harder or lighter depends on the situation and is part of being a good uke. Like I heard from others, some of my hardest hits have been by women.
    "Fear is the true opiate of combat."

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differently than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    The hardest I have ever been hit was by a lady.
    me too, but i kinda had that one a-comin'.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Each student is different, regardless of gender. Each student should be treated differently. After all, tailoring is a key principle in kenpo.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    I think this is actually a bit of an interesting question; one that causes me to further contemplate a place I find myself in...rock on one side, hard place to the other. When I have male brown belts and up, I whup on them in demo and drill. I also expect them to whup on me. I have a female brown now, who I expect to whup on me so I can feel how she's doing. HOWEVER, I won't whup on her like I do the boyz.

    Had a buddy come out recently, looking to tape some material he forgot. Still a beginning belt, so I'm going easier on him than I do my advanced bets. Knocked the crap outta him at 1/4 contact. About 1/2 way through, he had to sit out; we still had material to go, so she stepped in to finish taping. I cut back to less than 1/2 of what I was doing to Dan'l, and she was still getting knocked about. Yet, when we train, she's always pestering me to whack her so she can feel it. Now, I ain't small, and I been at this for a spell. If I whack her, she's going to drop, often. What's that going to teach her, or prove? There is a big difference in force delivery between her best shot as a 6 year brown belt, and mine as a 35 year black. Do ya one better...

    At an event recently, very competent 4th degree from another lineage is also getting miffed with me for holding back. So I stepped up the control manipulation intensity, so she could "feel" a tad more muscled around, without there actualy being an increase in strike force. Same problem, higher ranked uke. I'm sure she's taken her shots; she's a Yodan. I don't imagine one gets there without some contact. But is her version of "hard" contact the same as mine? I doubt it. Again, not bragging; just doubting that her frame...half my size...with half as much time spent obsessing about this odd hobby of ours and isolating individual blows for max impact...just doubting we have the same definition & referents.

    A kickboxing gym I was part owner in had several young ladies training there. We obviously went lighter. After I left, one of them (who had been working quite dilligently up to this point, and was good for where she was at) pestered the other instructor to really come at her so she could have a realistic comparator for her skills. He put her off for several months, then finally one day got sick up and fed....she wouldn't leave the ring until he tied up with her. So he let her have it with one jab-cross-hook combo delivered at the intensity we used to spar with. Busted nose & fat/split upper lip on the jab; cross to the left cheekbone swelled it shut over the eye within minutes; and the hook to the jaw disabled her with whiplash and an inability to bite down for more than a week after.

    I still think he's an ass, and I encouraged her to sue the crap out of him, but she wouldn't do it; he's also known to avoid me since, as we already parted on poor terms, and this just worsened them. But that's another thing. Now, she had been in the ring, sparred, even had a debut amateur fght that left her bruised and icing her hands and shins. Even though debut fight landed punch counts are typically really low (ready for another sexist remark?) particularly in womens kickboxing, she thought she had the ability to hang with the big dogs because she had some ring experience, and thought she knew the kind of hurt that higher intensity brings on. So she thought she was prepared, and could take it. Heck, I thought I knew roughly how hard a martial artist could hit, until I dummied for Mr. Parker for the very first time, and wasn't really sure I was going to live to tell about it. What we think we understand, and what's out there, often have vast gaps between them.

    So I hold back. I hold back with a female 4th degree; I hold back with my female brown belt; I hold back, because it seems pretty dishonorable to me to beat on a woman just because you can, and it serves no purpose in providing her with leanring that will prepare or empower her for conflict. The ONLY lesson I think a woman can get out of such an encounter is that...sudden violence with a big angry male gorilla of our species will hurt...a lot, and if you're going to fight back, you damn well better be fast, hard, aggressive, and ruthless, because if he makes contact in rage he's gonna jack you up.

    Short answer: Yes, females should be treated differently than males. Call me sexist; call me old fashioned; call me weak; whatever. The instructors job is to prepare women to survive the harsh realities of personal combat, not provide them with the reality itself. And boys often hit harder. Sometimes, very much so.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Great Post Doc Dave! It makes sense to me if I'm working with a 50 plus female student with arthritis I will go different than with my instructor's 18 year old son.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Brewer View Post
    Great Post Doc Dave! It makes sense to me if I'm working with a 50 plus female student with arthritis I will go different than with my instructor's 18 year old son.
    Would you treat the 50 plus female student with arthritis differently than a 50 plus year old male with arthritis?
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Short answer: Yes, females should be treated differently than males. Call me sexist; call me old fashioned; call me weak; whatever. The instructors job is to prepare women to survive the harsh realities of personal combat, not provide them with the reality itself. And boys often hit harder. Sometimes, very much so.
    Hi Dave.

    You're sexist, old-fashioned and weak, but that's neither here nor there. lol.

    Great post. I agree. I KNOW men hit harder than me and I know I don't want to be on the receiving end. It's important to know how to take a hit, so you can learn to shake it off and get up, but I also know that if you, being the brute that you are, connected on any part of my body with your 'full' force, I'd be out. (And for those of you who know me, I'm anything but a wilting flower.)

    Most important for women is to avoid, parry, duck, run, move, get out of the way and then to just not get hit.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    Would you treat the 50 plus female student with arthritis differently than a 50 plus year old male with arthritis?
    Hmm that depends some of those guys are just downright sneaky

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differently than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by amylong View Post
    Well, yes and no.

    As a woman, I can train hard and do weights and do lots of kicking and punching, but I am never going to be as strong as most of the post-pubescent males, nor will I be able to take as much of a hit as most of them either.

    We should be expected to train as hard and as strong as we are physically able.

    I know I'm not as strong as the guys, but I'm not a wimp either. I pride myself on being able to take a hit and I most certainly can make the guys wince (unless they're just humoring me), but I know I'm not physically as strong as the men and I wouldn't want anyone I'm working with to think I was. Too easy for me to get hurt.

    --Amy
    You are one smart lady. I often speak of the obvious differences between the sexes, but that doesn't mean I'm a sexist. I often feel women are and should be smarter about how they train and approach self defense. I feel a woman who recognizes her general comparitive physical deficiencies, and uses her 'smarts' can equalize the mismatch, and be victorious.

    Working a black & white and given the opportunity to have a female partner I always thought it was cool. With a female partner, she and I could get away with stuff two guys couldn't. I could approach a situation and decide whether I should handle it and possibly get in a physical confrontation or, send in my partner who could de-escalate the same situation that I knew would blow up on me. I always told my rookie female trainees, "Don't try to be one of the guys, because you aren't and never will be. Be who you are and use it to your advantage. Be smarter than the guys, and fight only when you have to." I had a female partner and we rolled up on this big dude who was seriously pissed off, and threatened to kill anyone that came near him. As I took out my baton, my smarter female partner I had trained said, "I got this." She recognized something immediately I missed. She walked up to him and shouted, "Stop crying you big baby." and grabbed him by his ear and pulled him over to the unit and searched him as I stood by. We arrested him without incidence. After he was booked, I asked my partner how she knew she could get away with that. She said, "I recognized from his body language that he was a mommas boy. While he may have slapped his girlfriend, there was no way he was going to be physical with a mother figure. So I treated him like his momma." The funny thing was, I had taught her that, but because I didn't have the opportunity to use it regularly, it slipped right by me.

    While us stupid testosterone driven neanderthal guys are posturing and chest bumping using physical strength, a smart woman will drop your ass, and walk away victorious as a bonified member of the "Estrogen Mafia." The force is with them.
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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    True dat, Chief. True dat.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by John Brewer View Post
    Hmm that depends some of those guys are just downright sneaky
    I'll take age and trickery over youth and exuberance any time.
    Be careful what you say, some may take it the wrong way.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Quote Originally Posted by jdinca View Post
    I'll take age and trickery over youth and exuberance any time.
    No doubt...especially the older I get! I figure what I lack in finesse I make up for in pure meaness though.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    wow thanks everyone! Good info.
    I was feeling down that I couldnt quite keep up with the guys. They didnt spar as hard with me.
    I think I need to approach the whole thing differently. I'm learning how to protect myself should I be attacked...it's highly unlikely I'll be in a bar fight or some such...more likely some guy will try and rape. Usually men who do that wont want a 'victim' that's too much trouble...I WILL be trouble if someone tries anything with me.

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    Default Re: Should females be treated differenty than males?

    Yes, it is unlikely that a strange man will try to spar you in a dark alley.
    -David C
    http://www.kungfubooksonline.com

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    "For many a 'system' is just a bunch of techniques. It should be much, much more than that..."
    - Doc Chapel

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