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Thread: technique question

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    KenpoApprentice2k is offline
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    Default technique question

    what is back up mass?
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    Default Re: technique question

    It is one of the primary ways of generating power in American Kenpo. It is defined as "your body weight moving in-line with your strike".

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    Default Re: technique question

    Try throwing a punch into a bag with your feet together and standing straight up.

    Now try the same puch (reverse punch) from a neutral bow moving into a forward bow.

    Feel the difference in power/force?

    Your body mass is behind the the punch.
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    Default Re: technique question

    If I jump off the top turnbuckle and land with my elbow on a guy laying prone, am I using backup mass or marriage of gravity?

    Lamont
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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    If I jump off the top turnbuckle and land with my elbow on a guy laying prone, am I using backup mass or marriage of gravity?

    Lamont
    Hahaha, I think that would be marriage of gravity at its finest!
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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoApprentice2k View Post
    what is back up mass?
    Per the Encyclopedia of Kenpo:
    Back-Up-Mass: The use of body weight that is directly behind the action that is taking place. As example, (1) a punch delivered when the elbow is directly behind the fist, or (2) the bracing of one finger directly behind the other other when delivering a two finger chop to the throat, etc.
    Back-Up-Mass is greatly enhanced when proper body alignment is achieved. Body alignement gets mass into proper perspective and allowes the body to take full advantage of channeling weight and energy while traveling in the same direction (DIRECTIONAL HARMONY)
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    Default Re: technique question

    Marriage of Gravity is Back-up Mass, on a downward vertical plane.

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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Marriage of Gravity is Back-up Mass, on a downward vertical plane.
    So why isn't it simply referred to as 'backup-mass'? it would save a lot of confusion.... just wondering out loud.

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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    So why isn't it simply referred to as 'backup-mass'? it would save a lot of confusion.... just wondering out loud.
    Probably for the simplified understanding. Some definitions of back-up mass include a subordinate clause, 'moving on a horizontal line'. I do not include that subordinate clause, because it is limiting to the definition.

    When introducing power principles to new students; back-up mass is horizontal, marriage of gravity is downward, torque is rotational. It is easy to understand 'forward', 'downward', 'twist'.

    But, with these definitions of power principles, we have no representation of power utilized on the diagonal. We also do not properly explain power used in an upward motion.

    Of course, if you have another suggestion, you could explain your wondering here.

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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    So why isn't it simply referred to as 'backup-mass'? it would save a lot of confusion.... just wondering out loud.
    Gravity only works in a single direction, due to the fact the Earth sucks.

    Back-Up Mass may be used despite gravity in a myriad of directions.

    When we employ Marriage with Gravity, we borrow from Mr. Newton's famed discovery involving the fact that apples don't fall up. We use the irrefutable fact that objects with a positive mass, tend to be drawn towards the earth's surface.

    Unless you're dealing with a really, REALLY large opponent, who possesses their own specific gravity, odds are good that you won't find your weapons inextricably drawn towards them. *

    Back-up mass uses another Law of Physics that states an object in motion tends to stay in motion until acted upon by an outside force.

    If I stand on the balls of my feet and use only my the muscles of my arm to deliver a strike, it has only so much force.

    If I lean out the window of my Millenium Prelude (Yes, it's the car that did the Kessel run in less than 4 parsecs!), and I deliver the same strike as I drive past you at 70 mph, you would understand the fundemental difference in the two principals.

    *..Exception to the rule seems to be my foot towards most cups
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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    If I jump off the top turnbuckle and land with my elbow on a guy laying prone, am I using backup mass or marriage of gravity?

    Lamont
    Dis a trick question???? Yer usin' yer elbow.

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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Probably for the simplified understanding. Some definitions of back-up mass include a subordinate clause, 'moving on a horizontal line'. I do not include that subordinate clause, because it is limiting to the definition.

    When introducing power principles to new students; back-up mass is horizontal, marriage of gravity is downward, torque is rotational. It is easy to understand 'forward', 'downward', 'twist'.

    But, with these definitions of power principles, we have no representation of power utilized on the diagonal. We also do not properly explain power used in an upward motion.

    Of course, if you have another suggestion, you could explain your wondering here.

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    Default Re: technique question

    i feel like being a smartass today. so i pose a similar question to build off this one. what good is backup mass, without bracing angles? :-p what's the difference, are they one in the same? or just similar and complimentary (as most are) principles
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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by madeku View Post
    i feel like being a smartass today. so i pose a similar question to build off this one. what good is backup mass, without bracing angles? :-p what's the difference, are they one in the same? or just similar and complimentary (as most are) principles
    In the spirit of being a smartass, I will point out that a bullet, fired from a gun, has zero bracing angle.

    You ask 'what good is backup mass without bracing angle', I believe that bullets have been shown to be 'good' in the area of destroying the object impacted.

    I think that one can also find a thought experiment where bracing angle exists without backup mass; .... structure, with no velocity. If we imagined this structure as kenpo practitioner in a good forward bow stance with rear hand thrusting punch extended to the (imaginary) point of impact; one could stand, with his face touching that fist all day, and observe no damage. Until momentum is introduced, bracing angle will have no impact value.

    So, I think we can agree that backup mass and bracing angle are not, one, in the same.

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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    In the spirit of being a smartass, I will point out that a bullet, fired from a gun, has zero bracing angle.

    You ask 'what good is backup mass without bracing angle', I believe that bullets have been shown to be 'good' in the area of destroying the object impacted.

    I think that one can also find a thought experiment where bracing angle exists without backup mass; .... structure, with no velocity. If we imagined this structure as kenpo practitioner in a good forward bow stance with rear hand thrusting punch extended to the (imaginary) point of impact; one could stand, with his face touching that fist all day, and observe no damage. Until momentum is introduced, bracing angle will have no impact value.

    So, I think we can agree that backup mass and bracing angle are not, one, in the same.
    The gun is braced against one should or held in ones hand....
    "You can't account for everything, but you should account for the reasonably probable. Unfortunately for the unknowledgeable, those never ending 'what if's' will choke your thought process to death with useless information." - Doc

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    Default Re: technique question

    Some principles can work effectively by themselves, while one's maneuvers can be greatly improved by using several principles in tandem with each other.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: technique question

    take a front punch from a person in a neutral bow..

    punch 1. the fist moves first, then the body. the elbow is outward..
    in my understanding this punch has momentum, but no backup mass because of the lack of bracing angle.

    punch 2. same as 1, but the elbow is downard
    punch has bracing angle, and thus backup mass.
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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by SifuDangeRuss View Post
    Gravity only works in a single direction, due to the fact the Earth sucks.


    well that just depends on your point of view

    Back-Up Mass may be used despite gravity in a myriad of directions.


    which is precisely why I asked the question in the first place - if backup mass works in multiple directions, not just 'horizontally', but vertically / anything else as well, why not refer to all of them as backup mass? Because that's exactly what M.O.G is on a vertical plane, according to michaeledward. B.U.M (as it shall henceforth be known) encompasses the term M.O.G. Would it not be simpler to describe the major power principle in kenpo (B.U.M) as simply "align and direct your body behind the strike in whatever direction you happen to be going?"

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    Default Re: technique question

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Probably for the simplified understanding. Some definitions of back-up mass include a subordinate clause, 'moving on a horizontal line'. I do not include that subordinate clause, because it is limiting to the definition.
    but I would argue that it is simpler to have one term, not two or three. (not saying this is the right thing to do mind...)

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    When introducing power principles to new students; back-up mass is horizontal, marriage of gravity is downward, torque is rotational. It is easy to understand 'forward', 'downward', 'twist'.
    not arguing with you here, but how much of this is true because it is what you are familiar with? If you were coming to this with a fresh mind, would you have found an all-encompassing 'backup mass' term easier to deal with?

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    But, with these definitions of power principles, we have no representation of power utilized on the diagonal. We also do not properly explain power used in an upward motion.

    Of course, if you have another suggestion, you could explain your wondering here.
    I don't have a better suggestion, I was really just thinking aloud that 'backup mass' could apply to striking in all directions (up/down/forward/diagonal), not just on the horizontal plane as it appears to be used at present. I'm probably way off base, just thought I'd throw it out there for discussion...

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