Kenpo vs other martial arts

[KenpoApprentice2k]

How effective is kenpo against other martial arts like TKD, MMA, Wing Chun etc...? Or do kenpoists not really worry about it, since Kenpo is primarily used for the street?

[Blindside]

How effective is kenpo against other martial arts like TKD, MMA, Wing Chun etc...? Or do kenpoists not really worry about it, since Kenpo is primarily used for the street?

Of course kenpoists worry about it, thats why it is a predominant argument on every discussion board you come across.

This may sound like a cop out, but all a martial art does is give you tools, it won't beat the guy up for you. I'd have no heartache about putting money on a good old-school TKDer over a crappy kenpoist. Kenpo has given me some great tools to understand what and why I am doing things in martial arts, that said, I found it necessary to go to a couple other systems to patch holes that I felt I had. I don't believe in an "ultimate martial art" but I do think some are better than others, kenpo from the Parker lineages is one of those better ones.

Lamont

[Celtic_Crippler]

I'd have to go with Blindside on this one for the most part.

Kenpo is a very good system, but there is no be-all-end-all martial art garaunteed to be 100% full proof.

There's too many variables outside of the art itself as well. Instructors being a major factor, then there's always how much time and effort the student puts in as well.

[kit]

You're kidding, right?
Why in the world would I care if my Kenpo could beat out TKD or any other style for that matter.
As I understand it, the martial arts came from a time in early Asian history when everyone was dominated by someone else and you either did what they said or suffered the consequences. As entire villages were dominated by warloards various fighting methods evolved, for the most part, based on the natural characteristics and physical habits of the inhabitants of the village. That's why you see a Northerrn or Southern styles.
Tournaments, sure they are a way to test your material, but against another style, that doesn't make sense, when was the last time you read about a man being attacked by a black belt in TKD. A good tournament would have you go up against various forms of street fighters, hmm, maybe armed with diferent weapons. Tournaments seems to be what it has all come down to, wow, wouldn't that be devolving. I practice, and have my student practice against fellow students wearing 14 oz. gloves and attacking with various street methods.


Kit

[tdamap]

Very simply put.....it's not the art, it's the practitioner!!! The more you put into an art, the more you get out of it!

[Carol]

How effective is kenpo against other martial arts like TKD, MMA, Wing Chun etc...? Or do kenpoists not really worry about it, since Kenpo is primarily used for the street?

Depends on the context.

Kenpo isn't as effective in the octagon as someone that is a trained sportfighter, for example.

[Hawke]

So many variables to this equation:

Past Instructors
Knowledge from past styles
Type of training
Quality of training
Genetics

just sooo many varibles.

Welcome back to the Forums.

[profesormental]

Greetings.

Kenpo is a system of combat instruction. It cannot fight. It is a method and process.

so is TKD, JKD, MMA, FMA, CMA, BJJ, XYZ, ABC, etc.

First you'd have to find a way in which they could "fight".

Also, you'd have to set parameters and circumstances in which to fight.

So as stated, the question doesn't make much sense.

Hope this helps.

Juan M. Mercado

[Phoenix_Rising33]

This is a good question as I wondered about this too. But like someone said, NO art is 100% and depends on many factors to make it effective when needed.

[KenpoChanger]

I say the arts are fine. The practitioners themselves are missing this or that principle or principles, based on: style (refining the art for a specific purpose), teacher (and that teacher's knowledge and experience(S), and culture.
Sean

[sjansen]

I have gone against MMA fighters out of the arena and they have lost. I have 12 years wrestling experience, 30 years karate, 4 years kenpo and 1 year Kali/Silat. I am 38 years old and just beat 3 fighters who wanted to see what I had who were less than 25. The kenpo works. Take the rules away and it simply works. Want to see an MMA fighter go down quick in the ring or on the steet? Kick him in the groin. Strike him in the throat. Kick him on the knee. If he gets you in a hold tap out and whatch him let go. Why? That's what he was trained to do.

[stone_dragone]

Isn't Keno a Casino game?

Aside from that, I echo the statements of it being rather individual. It's like asking who would win at Checkers, Joe Montana or Michael Jordan... it'll be whoever is the best at Checkers.

[kroh]

I didn't even pick up on the Keno till you said it! Kempo / Kenpo is geared toward self defense.

Like anything else you get what you put into it. We should all try and remember that with the advent of UFC and what not... some one trying to hurt you might have seen something and try something stupid. We are now up against a better brand of criminal. We have seen it happen in the Military for the last 20 years. Some guy decides to bring real world fighting skills back to his crew, gang, whatever, and joins the infantry or the Military Police to learn real world tactics (as well as police procedure in regards to the latter).

So in whatever you train... test your skill on at least a semi-constant basis. Ask for help... If you want to see if your stuff works on a knife... Ask a FMA guy to tune you up with the chalk knives or what have you, Dog Brothers Style. Want to see if your stuff measures up when taken down... work with some BJJ or Sambo guys, or even better, set up a mutual seminar at the local high school and have those kids (some of whom are state champions) try and tune you up.

The best way to see if your Kenpo stacks up is to keep your training honest.

Regards,
Walt

[KenpoCoach]

Grand Master Planas said: We are to practice 2 second Kenpo. "If it takes longer then 2 seconds to end the fight ... Then you are fighting more then 1 man."

His point of course is to tell the student they need to learn how to use their Kenpo in the most effective way possible. To do this they must learn to read the opponent's movement. Which is an art all by itself. Further, the student must be a Dragon in achievement and not the Lion. The Dragon represents intelligence combined with brute strength. (The Lion represents thoughtless brute strength combined with ripping and clawing strikes) To return to the point; If the student learns how to defeat an opponent in 2 seconds using his intelligence and maximizing the three power principles of Kenpo, in unison, few martial artist of any Art will stand against him or her.

If on the other hand, the student has yet to master the art of Kenpo and is attempting to fight an experienced fighter of any martial art then providence or luck must be with him to win.

To be clear; I know of only a few people who have taken their Kenpo to this skill level. But not many. Usually people who work this hard as being that good at something become labeled as a nut. To be a Dragon means to study and learn for ones self how to correctly apply Kenpo quickly and deadly. I am a believer in what Master Planas has said and I am working in this direction.

To reach my goal of Dragon I have discovered that our Motion Kenpo or Commercial Kenpo programming is inadequate for my needs. This does not mean I am looking outside of Kenpo for my continued advancement. To the contrary, I find all the scientific principles taught in Kenpo with regard to motion, power, accuracy and timing to be all that is needed to reach Dragon status. However, it is clear to me that I must find my own way, my own understandings of how to read my opponent and execute my actions without delay. In my opinion, there is no-one who can teach this level of skill as the need to succeed has got to come from within the practitioner.

Respectfully submitted May 7th 2009,

KenpoCoach

[Brother John]

a Very insightful reply K.C., thank you.

I agree that any practitioner MUST make the art their own, assimilate & master the tools and internalize the principles that make it work in order to...well.... make it work! I like the way you worded this. Just making it to class and "working out" isn't the "Path".....it's barely even the price of admitance TO the path!

I find the question of "Art vs. Art" as a bit tedious and inconsequential. (NO offense to the original poster. I think that all MA'ists at some point or other wonder about this sort of thing) I see the "SYSTEM" of American Kenpo as a system of training. BUT: it's a means or path of training, but YOU have got to do the walking on that path! The system is very well equiped to offer a conscientous student a comprehensive, in depth & cohesive study of combat... but it only offers the tools; personal development depends a great deal on the dedication & consistent diligence of the student over the long haul...and the commitment and 'depth of cultivation' of the instructor.

But: I don't think that American Kenpo is the ONLY system that meets these needs. Not by a long shot. It's just a matter of my own opinion that it's the one that suits ME the best for my way of moving, the way I think and my own personal 'tastes'.

Thanks...

Your Brother
John

PS: Coach... I've got a couple of questions, but their a big 'side-line' to this subject. IF you want to reply here, GREAT....if not, a PM would be fine too:
#1: You're the only one that I've heard refer to Mr. Planas as "Grand Master" ....is that something that he generally goes by or expects??? (simply a curiosity)
#2: You mentioned a symbolic dichotomy between "Dragon" and "Lion". I'm not familiar with that. Is it the same as the difference between the Dragon and Tiger, like in the Kenpo Crest???

[KenpoCoach]

Brother John,

I must apologize. The word Lion comes natural to me and therefore my use of the word Lion was a mistake. I should have said Tiger.

Mr. Planas is a 10th. As I understand the ranking system of Kenpo Karate he is therefore a Grand Master. The words "Senior Grand Master" is reserved for the creator of the system we study. I am aware that other systems do things differently.

As for Mr. Planas, I understand he cares not for any title over the title Black Belt.

Sincerely,

KenpoCoach

[Darkside]

Brother John,

I must apologize. The word Lion comes natural to me and therefore my use of the word Lion was a mistake. I should have said Tiger.

Mr. Planas is a 10th. As I understand the ranking system of Kenpo Karate he is therefore a Grand Master. The words "Senior Grand Master" is reserved for the creator of the system we study. I am aware that other systems do things differently.

As for Mr. Planas, I understand he cares not for any title over the title Black Belt.

Sincerely,

KenpoCoach

KenpoCoach,

Not to argue semantics, but I could of sworn a 10th degree black belt in Mr.Parker's kenpo is bestowed the title of Senior Master of the Arts and nowhere mentioned as being a Grand Master. I could be wrong, and not that it matters much, but maybe one of our Seniors could clarify.

Salute,
Jeff

[Dr. Dave in da house]

I am in agreement with Huks concept of 2-second kenpo. It reflects, to me, the difference between fighting off an attacker, and dispatching a target. When you're in a "mission mindest", dispatching is better. And there's a tendency to drop into it with greater clarity and automaticity when you've been surprise-assaulted.

2 seconds is a long time in kenpo.

D.

PS -- SMA is the title Mr. Parker set up for 10ths in AK. Check Infinfite Insights.

D.

[unshackled-chi]

Bruce Lee said " I hope that my fellow martial artist are not so concerned with the many flower branches, but that they are more concerned with the root." I use Bruces quote because the concept of being well rounded in all ranges of combat and practising in an "alive" manner is not a new idea, not something that was born in an octogon or held secret to those who love redbull. That concept was made famous by Bruce in his art of JKD, but to quote Bruce again " I have not created a new style of fighting." he was being very transparent and honest, Bruces concepts are found throughout many martial styles because he searched for the truth in combat , he looked into all styles and drew from them what HE felt was useful and he rejected what HE felt was useless for HIM.

my point in all this is there are no styles of fighting, its like what makes a good basketball, or football player / its not his style, there is no soft style of basketball, or a hardstyle of basketball, its the attributes. concepts and principles, strategies ect are what a "system" can give you , it is your athletic ability that will make you stand out..not your style , your attributes. If you take the economy of motion of wing chun and apply it to a thai boxer, you will have a better thai boxer, if you take the hardcore everything mentality and training of a thai boxer and apply it to a wing chun man, you will have a better wing chun man and on and on it goes.

To put an art that was created for defence of yourself against an art that is now trained for sport is apples and oranges, not because we have all the foul tactics, there are many MMA fighter who are capable of defending themselves, for christ sake they are PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS! ..i can cook, but if i was pitted against chef Ramsey id look like a study in slow motion, the important point is , if someone attacks you on the"street" in a manner that is legally justafiable to use force and not end up in prison, i doubt they will be trying for a double leg takedown so they can implement thier grappling game. If we find ourselves in situations where we are doing the whole dance on our toes a bit..a little jab..a little this a little that, we in my opinon have found ourselves in a situation where lossing the ego could have ended that situation by walking away, fighting is not self defence, and if you look at the many martial arts systems out there that are for self defence..i think most of them will give you skills to use to defend yourself so that you can get your shots in and ESCAPE!!!, its not about victory but survival..two totally different animals, and by defining our goals and checking our egos mixed with training, really hard REALLY HARD, putting in the flight time..doing the work we come to know ourselves and develop our attributes..getting good and hopefully really good lol.

Was it Mr Parker himself who said something to the effect, "when pure knuckles meet pure flesh..THAT! is pure Karate". to me thats it..not styles..but making it work, if we can know who we are and resolve to defend our lives with clear intentions and develop the attributes to carry that out , and understand what Mr Parkers quote is all about, we can put any art in the world in and it would work in a self defence situation.

[kroh]

Bruce Lee said " I hope that my fellow martial artist are not so concerned with the many flower branches, but that they are more concerned with the root." I use Bruces quote because the concept of being well rounded in all ranges of combat and practising in an "alive" manner is not a new idea, not something that was born in an octogon or held secret to those who love redbull. That concept was made famous by Bruce in his art of JKD, but to quote Bruce again " I have not created a new style of fighting." he was being very transparent and honest, Bruces concepts are found throughout many martial styles because he searched for the truth in combat , he looked into all styles and drew from them what HE felt was useful and he rejected what HE felt was useless for HIM.

my point in all this is there are no styles of fighting, its like what makes a good basketball, or football player / its not his style, there is no soft style of basketball, or a hardstyle of basketball, its the attributes. concepts and principles, strategies ect are what a "system" can give you , it is your athletic ability that will make you stand out..not your style , your attributes. If you take the economy of motion of wing chun and apply it to a thai boxer, you will have a better thai boxer, if you take the hardcore everything mentality and training of a thai boxer and apply it to a wing chun man, you will have a better wing chun man and on and on it goes.

To put an art that was created for defence of yourself against an art that is now trained for sport is apples and oranges, not because we have all the foul tactics, there are many MMA fighter who are capable of defending themselves, for christ sake they are PROFESSIONAL FIGHTERS! ..i can cook, but if i was pitted against chef Ramsey id look like a study in slow motion, the important point is , if someone attacks you on the"street" in a manner that is legally justafiable to use force and not end up in prison, i doubt they will be trying for a double leg takedown so they can implement thier grappling game. If we find ourselves in situations where we are doing the whole dance on our toes a bit..a little jab..a little this a little that, we in my opinon have found ourselves in a situation where lossing the ego could have ended that situation by walking away, fighting is not self defence, and if you look at the many martial arts systems out there that are for self defence..i think most of them will give you skills to use to defend yourself so that you can get your shots in and ESCAPE!!!, its not about victory but survival..two totally different animals, and by defining our goals and checking our egos mixed with training, really hard REALLY HARD, putting in the flight time..doing the work we come to know ourselves and develop our attributes..getting good and hopefully really good lol.

Was it Mr Parker himself who said something to the effect, "when pure knuckles meet pure flesh..THAT! is pure Karate". to me thats it..not styles..but making it work, if we can know who we are and resolve to defend our lives with clear intentions and develop the attributes to carry that out , and understand what Mr Parkers quote is all about, we can put any art in the world in and it would work in a self defence situation.

Hock Hockheim said it best... combat should be about fighting first and systems second. Once you get the offender on the ground you can have you kenpo moment, kali moment, military moment...

Regards,
Walt