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Thread: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

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    Default stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    The question is: should you stay or go after delivering a technique, assuming that you were attacked on the street.
    The law in many States is that you can only use as much force as was used aganist you. Hmmm, who judges the level of force delivered aganist you by your opponent? That's another thread.
    Ed Parker when asked this said, "leave the scene", he didn't supply any particulars.
    If you stick to the rule of law and return only as much force as you received you may not get arrested. However if you deliver dance of death or some other great technique based on your opponents attack and the ground is a sidewalk and he cracks his head(are you following all this) when you take him down, or when he falls.....The burden of proof may fall on your shoulders to prove that 1. you used control and 2. That the attack was potentialy lethal...3 The price of an attorney may be greater then the cost of your Kenpo lessons. Then again what is the value of well being, something your attacker might have taken from you. Hmm, much to consider...figure it out early on in your training so when and if the time comes the decision Stay or go comes quick and easy.

    Kit
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    40 years in kenpo

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    As Joe Landsdale says, "Hit hard, hit fast, and head to the house!"

    Stop when you're sure they're no longer a threat and/or you can safely escape.

    In the end it doesn't matter who is right, what matter's is who is left. Where did I hear that?
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    The "technique" was a learning tool anyway, and shouldn't be what dictates what happens to the attacker. "Letting go" to the point where motions go past intent is poor use of one's kenpo, and that is what gets one into trouble. To answer the question, "how far does one go" depends on one's intent in the encounter. What do you want to do? Avoid? Submit? Hurt? Maim? Killl? We musn't expect to thumb through the rolodex of learned techniques for the one that fits the severity of attack any more than we would for the mechanics of the attack. It should be a proactive sequence of attack, taken to the necessary end, fueled by the mind and will, and executed by a body that was trained according to particular methods, only part of which was techniques.

    The intent, hopefully, is tempered by self awareness, morals, ethics, and last but certainly not least, awareness of the rules of the game.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Celtic_Crippler View Post
    As Joe Landsdale says, "Hit hard, hit fast, and head to the house!"

    Stop when you're sure they're no longer a threat and/or you can safely escape.

    In the end it doesn't matter who is right, what matter's is who is left. Where did I hear that?
    We all know the real answer, but none of us want to say it publicly...

    ...or maybe we are too smart to say it publicly?

    Anyway one of my long time students, Bobby, loves to get into fights and hates going to jail.

    So he always drives away...

    ...agitating them as he goes.

    And then they follow.

    So he parks his car and gets out, walks across the side walk and gets on the grass on the other side.

    They pull up, get out of their car and attack him, on the grass on the other side.

    He kicks the holy hell out of them and then calls the cops.

    The other people are arrested for attempting assault and battery, and for trespassing.

    It's HIS PROPERTY infront of his home.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    We all know the real answer, but none of us want to say it publicly...

    ...or maybe we are too smart to say it publicly?

    Anyway one of my long time students, Bobby, loves to get into fights and hates going to jail.

    So he always drives away...

    ...agitating them as he goes.

    And then they follow.

    So he parks his car and gets out, walks across the side walk and gets on the grass on the other side.

    They pull up, get out of their car and attack him, on the grass on the other side.

    He kicks the holy hell out of them and then calls the cops.

    The other people are arrested for attempting assault and battery, and for trespassing.

    It's HIS PROPERTY infront of his home.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    Wow, LOL!
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    My teacher always said to me," When it comes to your life being threatened; I would rather come visit you in jail then in the cemetary!"


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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    ...or.....

    "It's better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Greetings.

    Many times it's better to go after delivering a pedagogical social lesson (i.e. a sound beating).

    Let them sort it out for themselves and concentrate on the lesson given.

    Your presence might distract them from the lesson at hand and you may have to give them a repeat lesson.

    Enjoy!

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    I think it depends on the situation.
    Does your attacker know who you are?
    Was there a witness?
    Are my wife and kids with me?
    Is this a big guy?
    Does he have a weapon?
    Was it reasonable to believe that you feared for your life?

    That point of view of the observer comes to mind.

    I can just hear the attacker now (holding his broken arm):
    "I was walking along and this guy jumped me,
    broke my arm and then took off."

    Witness:
    I didn't see what started it, but one guy did something
    and the other guy screamed and fell down.
    Then the guy who did something took off in his car
    license plate #xxx-xxxx

    I think it depends on the situation.

    You might end up trying to convince the police
    that you weren't the attacker.
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    Anyway one of my long time students, Bobby, loves to get into fights and hates going to jail.

    So he always drives away...

    ...agitating them as he goes.

    And then they follow.

    So he parks his car and gets out, walks across the side walk and gets on the grass on the other side.

    They pull up, get out of their car and attack him, on the grass on the other side.

    He kicks the holy hell out of them and then calls the cops.
    Long time student? Forgive me (on second thought don't) if one of my students behaved in this manner I would choose to no longer be his teacher. In fact I would consider my teaching of this person to be a failure. This is actually more of a reflection on the teacher than the student. The fact that you appear to be bragging of this fact speaks volumes.

    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    www.trianglekenpo.com

    "I know Kenpo!" "Cool... do you know how to use it?"

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Quote Originally Posted by bdparsons View Post
    Long time student? Forgive me (on second thought don't) if one of my students behaved in this manner I would choose to no longer be his teacher. In fact I would consider my teaching of this person to be a failure. This is actually more of a reflection on the teacher than the student. The fact that you appear to be bragging of this fact speaks volumes.

    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    It sure does, don't it!!!

    The guy loves to fight AND WIN so he went to a trainer that taught him to be very good at FIGHTING AND WINNING.

    And I am amused that you are making a moral judgement of me because of what Bobby did, aren't you?

    Which does speak much about you, does it not.

    NOTICE that I was on topic, and whether or not my "story" was 100% true or not, it is totally an ISOMORPHIC RELATIONSHIP to the TOPIC of this THREAD was TOTALLY ON TOPIC!

    NOTICE that Bobby did NOT fight on ground that make him the aggressor.

    NOTICE that Bobby went home and those other poor ignorant folks THAT ALSO WANTED TO FIGHT did follow him, tresspass on HIS PROPERTY and attempt to beat him up.

    THEY made choices bill that were pretty damn stupid.

    And Bobby made choices that were pretty damn smart.

    He did learn something, and the thread was about "staying or going after delivering a damaging technique" which did NOT go into the above type of situation.

    So I gave a perfect example from the Ping Fa, and showed how Bobby used it.

    So, I suggest you burn the Ping Fa, since it is all Sun Tzu's fault.

    I was just the lowly stupid messenger helping out a student.

    And you are attempting to make me out the bad guy. Wow!

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Greetings.

    Always choose the ground where the battle is to take place.

    More control over the environment, more resources for you. An Advantage. One of the preparatory considerations and one of the Eight Considerations.

    I personally would escape to safer environments...

    Here in Puerto Rico, many times after you beat someone up, they come back in numbers and armed.

    On other occasions, it's just funny.

    One time I was walking around at night and there were other people on the sidewalk. A guy in a small SUV and someone on the street started yelling at each other.

    The guy in the car stopped it in the middle of the street, got out, and they both started fighting right there. I chuckle as I write this just from imagining it!

    This action stopped traffic, and lots of people stopped to watch the fight! Some cheered!

    After boxing a bit (it really looked like boxing... fights here tend to look like that if not ended fast) and exchanging some blows... the guy got back in the car, and left.

    The other guy just kept walking.

    I guess the environment and the welfare of his car interrupted their fighting.

    Later, I'll tell the story of what happened in front of a bar near here; a case study on what happens after a damaging blow is inflicted.

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    And I am amused that you are making a moral judgement of me because of what Bobby did, aren't you?

    Which does speak much about you, does it not.
    Glad you think it's amusing. Question... When learning of this behavior, "...agitating them as he goes.", did you as his teacher a) tell him his behavior was unacceptable b) be personally concerned that he wasn't 'getting' what you were trying to teach or c) realize that he behaved exactly as you would have , slapped him on the back and went out for a few beers?

    I truly hope that my response does speak volumes about myself.

    Bill Parsons
    Triangle Kenpo Institute
    www.trianglekenpo.com

    "I know Kenpo!" "Cool... do you know how to use it?"

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Greetings.

    As I promised:

    A couple was talking at the other side of a series of bars, minding their own business.

    Two guys passed them and commented distastefully about the woman, and calmly her Man (let's call him Man) told the guys to please not say such things to his wife (actually, he said "my woman" in spanish, which may mean wife...).

    The guys got "guapos" (cocky) and said: "Y que carajo tu va a hac..." BOOOM!!

    And the Man straight punched the guy in the face.

    In English, he said: "So, what the hell are you gonna..." BOOOM!

    Anyway, the other guy went to get a free cheap shot at the Man...

    Man blocked, then grabbed the arm, pulled and hit the elbow...

    broke the elbow actually.

    both guys were on the floor.

    And his face didn't even seem fazed through the whole situation. Still the same calm face and it seemed completely effortless. His wife was also seemingly unimpressed.

    He said "C'mon mami, you can't have a good time here." And they left.

    No one went to help the dudes... they got up and left a few minutes later.

    My friend was having a beer, and since it looked like a movie scene... he was looking at his beer funny...

    So I guess my vote still is to go after the fact of fighting.

    Hope you enjoyed!

    Juan M. Mercado

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    I don't think that the level of force you use and the fact of staying or leaving the scene of your attack is the same thing. I think that the law would look at whether or not you took responsibility for what happened. Maybe staying there would continue to place yourself in danger, in which case getting out of there at the first opportunity would be the best choice period. But getting away doesn't mean not contacting the police and letting them know what happened. That, I think, would be the responsible thing to do.

    In the case of Bobby, I think that he should have gone inside his house and called the police. If they (those threatening him) took it upon themselves to come into his home (Trespassing & Breaking and Entering) and attack him (aggravated battery) then he'd be morally and legally in the right to fight. But if he had the opportunity to get away (as he was in his car, and did manage to get home first) then he'd be morally and legally in the wrong to provoke or invite a fight.
    Just my opinion.

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    I don't think that the level of force you use and the fact of staying or leaving the scene of your attack is the same thing. I think that the law would look at whether or not you took responsibility for what happened. Maybe staying there would continue to place yourself in danger, in which case getting out of there at the first opportunity would be the best choice period. But getting away doesn't mean not contacting the police and letting them know what happened. That, I think, would be the responsible thing to do.
    Sounds good to me.

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    In the case of Bobby, I think that he should have gone inside his house and called the police. If they (those threatening him) took it upon themselves to come into his home (Trespassing & Breaking and Entering) and attack him (aggravated battery) then he'd be morally and legally in the right to fight. But if he had the opportunity to get away (as he was in his car, and did manage to get home first) then he'd be morally and legally in the wrong to provoke or invite a fight.
    I did find what Bobby did sort of amusing.

    Hopefully I can have that opinion?

    It did happen 20 years ago, and I did find it amusing then, and even though I don't see Bobby anymore, I still find it amusing.

    And they CHOSE to go on his property.

    I did NOT teach him those skills.

    But when he told me about it I did take notes.

    And he did call the cops.

    It was a very viable tactic of self-defense against the lawyers.

    Hopefully it's okay that I have that opinion?

    Dr. John M. La Tourrette

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    Quote Originally Posted by John M. La Tourrette View Post
    I did find what Bobby did sort of amusing.
    Hopefully I can have that opinion?
    It did happen 20 years ago, and I did find it amusing then, and even though I don't see Bobby anymore, I still find it amusing.
    And they CHOSE to go on his property.
    I did NOT teach him those skills.
    But when he told me about it I did take notes.
    And he did call the cops.
    It was a very viable tactic of self-defense against the lawyers.
    Hopefully it's okay that I have that opinion?
    Dr. John M. La Tourrette
    I guess I don't understand the parts about hoping you can have an opinion.
    You can have whatever opinion you want.
    And I can see how you'd find that amusing.

    My point merely delt with what should and shouldn't happen. That's all. You can feel about it anyway you like of course.
    It was good that he called the cops. Shows that he took responsibility for his role in things.

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    Default Re: stay or go after delivering a damaging technique

    I would have to say stay, Always use the approiate force for the attackers actions. If I ever forced to defend family,friends or myself in that type of way I would want to be the first one to tell the police what happened.

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