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Thread: checking the storm

  1. #101
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    [quote=kenpochrstn;63410]
    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post

    After the tek initiation your right hand is in the center line, is'nt it? All that I have stated is conjecture, and remains so until the attack/technique are completed. There is a whole lotta what ifs contained in this technique. What I have described is the "ideal" execution as I was taught, and I believe that it can work. It may not flesh out in the ABCD mode, but if I can only manage say AC, or even AD in the course of the attack. I think that will be enough to get me out of harms way.
    It should be yes ... bottom line is there are so many what if factors with this and every technique I supose we could talk about them for years and agree to disagree.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

  2. #102
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    Default Re: checking the storm


    HF,

    The AKKI has replaced that technique with one that will work. LOL Sorry I couldn’t help my self.

    Doc wrote,
    “The basis for Ed Parker's "Storm Technique" concept is you're being attacked by a BLUDGEON, not a stick. A bludgeon is defined by the fact its weight, in conjunction with its propelled inertial mass is what makes it a weapon. Somewhere along the line "CLUB" has beed redefined first as a "Stick," and then as a "lightweight stick" as utilized in other arts. It is not some thin cylinderical bamboo light weight stick you can twirl and whip around. It is substantially heavy enough to force….”


    When in an attack does one get to pick the weapon which the attacker uses?
    A bludgeoning is a bludgeoning, whether it is facilitated with a piece of a pool clue or a lead pipe. Frankly, I believe that you’re more likely to be attacked with a "lite" like stick. What is more common a pool clue or a lead pipe? What is more readily available a car antenna or base ball bat?
    I do understand that this is not FMA but if this is a “realistic” self-defense system shouldn’t we have techniques that work for a FMA attack. Further, shouldn’t the storm techniques work even if there is a different than intended weapon being thrown? Shouldn’t the technique work if the path is modified or changed?

    I thought the point of kenpo was to prepare the practitioner for a realistic attack not to practice memorization drills.
    Sorry, I feel we should employ the equation formula when need and invoke our freedom to change a substandard, out dated, and infective technique when need.
    Personally I share Mr. Parkers feelings of having techniques that I can fight with not ones that fight me.

    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike G
    AKKI
    Westminster, MD



  3. #103
    JamesB is offline
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    When in an attack does one get to pick the weapon which the attacker uses?


    You don't, but you do get to choose the technique you'll use, and checking-the-storm would be an appropriate technique for defending against the overhead club. Next you'll be saying that five-swords doesn't work against a bearhug attack, and therefore renders five-swords a useless technique. Using the appropriate response at any one time is one of the key concepts in kenpo. With checking-the-storm you get to *see* the weapon being used and can respond accordingly.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    A bludgeoning is a bludgeoning, whether it is facilitated with a piece of a pool clue or a lead pipe. Frankly, I believe that you’re more likely to be attacked with a "lite" like stick. What is more common a pool clue or a lead pipe? What is more readily available a car antenna or base ball bat?
    The likelyness of a weapon completely depends on the environment. A pool cue would be likely encountered in a pool-hall, but unlikely anywhere else. A lead pipe or a heavy 2x4 would be more common in industrial areas....and so on.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    I do understand that this is not FMA but if this is a “realistic” self-defense system shouldn’t we have techniques that work for a FMA attack.
    defending against FMA attacks? how about studying an art that is geared specifically towards that......like an FMA for example! that's exactly what they're designed for. Kenpo on the otherhand is designed to deal with scenarios that are likely to occur in everyday life for everyday people.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    Further, shouldn’t the storm techniques work even if there is a different than intended weapon being thrown? Shouldn’t the technique work if the path is modified or changed?
    The path *cannot* be modified or changed with a heavy weapon like a club. The attack method with a heavy club is *different* to that of a lighter stick. You still don't seem to understand this important detail. Kenpo storm techniques are not designed to work against lighter weapons. Have you ever swung a heavy club? The entire arm and shoulder must be used to lift the and swing the weapon, there will be no bend in the elbow and it won't be possible to stop the club's path once it is in orbit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    I thought the point of kenpo was to prepare the practitioner for a realistic attack not to practice memorization drills.
    exactly right.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    Sorry, I feel we should employ the equation formula when need and invoke our freedom to change a substandard, out dated, and infective technique when need.
    it seems you neither understand the nature of the attack, or the technique itself. There are plenty of folk stating that C.T.S. works fine but you appear unwilling to consider their perspectives?



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  5. #104
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    James,


    “five-swords……” will work against a bearhug attack, it may not be my first choice….

    “The likelyness of a weapon completely depends on the environment. A pool cue would be likely encountered in a pool-hall, but unlikely anywhere else. A lead pipe or a heavy 2x4 would be more common in industrial areas....and so on” Exactly!

    defending against FMA attacks? how about studying an art that is geared specifically towards that......like an FMA for example! that's exactly what they're designed for. Kenpo on the otherhand is designed to deal with scenarios that are likely to occur in everyday life for everyday people.” So you’re saying you won’t have to defend against a someone who has possibly learned FFM?

    “The path *cannot* be modified or changed with a heavy weapon like a club….” Sorry I will have to disagree. There are all types of club like weapons of different weights. To pigeon hole a techniques only to be used for a particular weapon is a waist of time and training. Why not just come up with a new technique that work on various types of attacks and weapons.

    “it seems you neither understand the nature of the attack, or the technique itself. There are plenty of folk stating that C.T.S. works fine but you appear unwilling to consider their perspectives? “ You may be right I may not understand but, maybe you are like many that go through the techniques and throw unrealistic attacks like robots. Perhaps you can show me in person how well it works one day.
    Yours in Kenpo,
    Mike G
    AKKI Westminster, MD
    Cckenpo.com
    410-259-7950






  6. #105
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    This is what happens when someone is "married" to a philosophy and interpretation of a Parker technique that supports a point of view. For these people, sometimes the obvious isn't so obvious. (See the toolbox "hammer nail analogy") It is why I gave the background of the technique itself, the theme, and the lesson it is supposed to impart by the man that created it.

    The argument about the weapon itself is moot, when you describe it as a bludgeon. What makes the weapon is its mass, not a very specific shape that some have locked into their mind to fit their philosophy and parameters. Whatever the shape, it's heavy. It could be a cinder block, a rock, or a longer object like a 2X4 or 2X2, as long as its HEAVY.

    Remember I stated the "Web of Knowledge" is more important than the technique to set the lesson. People need to take a step back and stop arguing "techniues" and discuss as I am prone to do, the lesson and the practicality of that lessons execution. Naming a technique is supposed to get us all on the same page so we can begin the discussion. As I've seen for many years now, it doesn't. It does frustrate me to write a long explanation of the techniqes history and lesson, to only have someone say, "But a Filipino guy could .... "

    Some are obsessed with FMA defenses for sticks and knives in a self defense art, when the likelyhood of either is rare. (I've worked all over the country actively seeking really bad people who have a desire to inflict injury or take your life. I've never been attacked by a FMA expert or even a novice with a stick. I have had a bazillion punches thrown at me, a very few kicks, and one knife in thirty years.)

    It amazes me that with the lack of basic skills prevalent in many Parker Kenpo interpretations and the arts in general, that so many are drifting toward so much weapon stuff, offensive and defensive. Most in this country never even get in a real fist fight, let alone are attacked with a deadly weapon. The mentality eludes me becuase it is so far from reality and Parker's personal philosophy. As someone who grew up in the badlands of South Central Los Angeels, I have never been attacked as an adult unless I was working as a LEO.

    Parker did his homework when creating self-defense technique themes. In the beginning the "skilled defenses" were against judo/jiujitsu/wrestling practitioners, not samurai because that's what the reality suggested. The knife assaults were simple and basic, based on FBI Stats the reality also suggested.

    Yes later on he did introduce knife and club sets, but I have also stated that this historically was for tournament competition in weapons divisions. This probably is why many have a problem with the 'reality' of the effectiveness of these 'teaching' elements. Confusing these sets with functional techniques.

    But these other arts are working off a different philosophy and cultural mandate that is, in most cases, incompatible with Parker's American Kenpo Philosophy. That is why American Kenpo was created.

    Yes, I know Parker himself muddied the waters and confused the crap out of people, by introducing so many different elelments for diverse reasons without explanation or context. I blame him for this for trying to be all things to all people at the same time. He didn't want to leave anyone behind, and in all honesty had to make a living as well. But anyone that knew him also knew his passion was his art(s) not making money. Money allowed him the support to work on his art instead of working for someone else.

    For those who choose to take a technique out of context, they should abstain from general context discussions of Ed Parker's Kenpo, OR give their instructor philosophy of how they view the technique and what they want to do with it. Of course this precludes them from certain aspects of the general discussion because they are outside the technique parameters of the group. Nevertheless, all points of view are valid if not necessarily equal and welcome in the discussion.

    It is also why I continue to use anatomy and logic as my base, because it is valid regardless of style or philosophy. Anatomically there is a right and wrong. Philosophically, you can choose to do whatever you want. See attacker with a gun, and a jump spinning back kick defense. Silly I know, but just like some interpretations of "Checking the Storm," they miss the point in favor of their style/interpretation/instructor point of view. While I recognize this may be a heterodox to some, all of Parker's interpretations should be based in sound logic. See "mind / parachute analogy."
    Last edited by Doc; 07-05-2007 at 06:17 PM.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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  8. #106
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    [QUOTE=katsudo_karate;63434]
    Quote Originally Posted by kenpochrstn View Post

    It should be yes ... bottom line is there are so many what if factors with this and every technique I supose we could talk about them for years and agree to disagree.
    The addressing of "what ifs" is what keeps people from learning.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

  9. #107
    JamesB is offline
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    defending against FMA attacks? how about studying an art that is geared specifically towards that......like an FMA for example! that's exactly what they're designed for. Kenpo on the otherhand is designed to deal with scenarios that are likely to occur in everyday life for everyday people.” So you’re saying you won’t have to defend against a someone who has possibly learned FFM?
    I was quite clear when I said: if you want to defend against an FMA guy then go train in an FMA. And yes, the chances of being attacked by such a trained person is very remote.

    Your entire argument against C.T.S seems to center around the premise that an FMA guy will be attacking you with lightweight sticks. C.T.S is *not* designed for this scenario. Why are you finding it so hard to come to terms with this? There seems to be a fundamental problem in the way you are viewing this technique. It seems you almost want to see it as 'ineffective' because it somehow validates your own perspective.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    “The path *cannot* be modified or changed with a heavy weapon like a club….” Sorry I will have to disagree. There are all types of club like weapons of different weights. To pigeon hole a techniques only to be used for a particular weapon is a waist of time and training. Why not just come up with a new technique that work on various types of attacks and weapons.


    No need to apologise, and you didn't answer my question. Have you ever swung a heavy club and then considered the implications of this style of attack in the storm techniques? The nature of the 'storm' attack is defined by the weight of the weapon and how this affects the attacker's mechanics, not so much by what the weapon looks like.

    To answer your own question, a general-purpose technique that works against various types of attack and weapons will never be as effective as specific knowledge applied appropriately.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alleydog View Post
    You may be right I may not understand but, maybe you are like many that go through the techniques and throw unrealistic attacks like robots. Perhaps you can show me in person how well it works one day.


    wow, you don't know the first thing about me yet you assume we train unrealistically? It seems you are the one that has a shaky grasp on reality. Do you actually believe that being attacked by a FMA guy is likely? *And* that he just happens to have his training sticks with him at the time?

    Would I to show you how C.T.S works (or rather my understanding of it)? of course, but are you actually interested? You sure don't appear to be...

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  11. #108
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    Would I to show you how C.T.S works (or rather my understanding of it)? of course, but are you actually interested? You sure don't appear to be...
    If he accepts what you're saying it will, on some level invalidate what he's being taught, and on another level his own accomplishments belts etc. This is a beginner technique he doesn't understand. Chances are he's not a white bely so in theory should "already know." That is a hard thing to do. It is why most do not progress in knowledge. Their focus is elsewhere. If only he could say, "This is the way my teacher chooses to view this technique," or This is not Ed Parker technique, and we have a different philosophy. End of story. Changing what you don't understand is rampant in Kenpo. If the changes work for you fine, but you can't claim you know better than Parker in his own art(s). Be happy that it works for you and let others try to get smarter.

    "Philosophies are like armpits. Everyone will have at least two in their lifetime." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "If someone tells you they have a pee shooter, and it is better than your machiine gun, leave them alone because eventually they'll find out." - Ed Parker Sr.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


    www.MSUACF.com

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    [quote=Doc;63294]
    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Keep in mind that when utilizing a true bludgeon, the action of the attack may not be truly vertical in intent, however this is mitigated by the mass of the bludgeon itself. This actually makes the mass part and parcel of the equation that must be factored in to determine the degree of diviation possible, along with the muscular physical capabilities of the attacker in controlling the mass under the inertia of its muscle driven acceleration.

    Under most circumstances, the attack will be ESSENTIALLY vertical with a minor diviation for the purposes of this technique scenario and lesson. The lesson is meant to address moving and checking of the action without physical contact. Thus the name "Checking the Storm," as oppossed to "parrying/blocking/redirecting," etc the Storm. Always begin with a dissection of the attack to establish experiment parameters, before moving onto the defense. There is a tendancy to focus on the techniques in the manuals, and to take the attack for granite. Don't!. Neither are well defined. That is the job of the knowledgeable teacher in the commercial system.

    The discussion as Dan speaks of, should focus on this aspect of the technique first. That is moving to a Zone of Sanctuary which in effect "checks" his action in conjunction with the mass of his chosen weapon. That is the crux of the technique as taught at such a rudamentary level. "Get out of the way" Parker said. The lesson at this level in conjunction with the honing of footwork, and his most basic "saying" for these series of techniques is, "Distance is your best friend."

    In our discussions he reminded me that "People tend to think of distance only in one dimension as depth. But in anatomical self-defense terms distance is about physical positioning relative to the attack." Parker then said, "I can stand still within inches of you, and you can't hit me." He then handed me the club, and stood behind me at my right shoulder. The lesson was clear, think in mutilple dimensions relative to the action and the environment.

    Then he took me over to the doorway and positioned me with the club in my hand and stood directly in front of me. "What about this?" he said. I said, "well now the restricted area of the door space makes swinging the club difficult." He said, "Yes, but you might alter the attack to fit the environemt and still hit me.: Then he smiled really big and slammed the door in my face. I could hear him in the kitchen laughing wildly at his own lesson slash joke. "Can you hit me now?" His point was taken.

    What he chided me to understand is that all techniqes have many intracies and lessons that may be gleaned from practice at multiple lesson levels. But when you teach a technique there is usually a specific theme or lesson you should focus on, and not began wandering all over the place if you want the student to learn. This what he did with inserting "themes" through his "Web of Knowledge." This is even more important than the techniques themselves because it lays the groundwork for the lesson plans, and what the lessons, regardless of the vehicle, should address.

    I asked him about the knife-edge knee kick, back fist and said it was awful. He said it was suggested by one of the seniors and I knew who it was because I was in the living room when it happened. He said he would "change it later," and spoke of how the theme of the technique was satisfied, and that was the most important thing. "Focus on the lesson, and the rest could be cleaned up ..." easily later. Obviously he never did, and some of that information through various sources crept into teaching from his last notes.

    Checking the Storm was to teach students to move out of the way and then counter with a long range weapon for safety. So the only things important are; stances and moving, how you move your arms to protect yourself in case the first is not completely efficient, and your initial retaliation.
    this post just made me realize that the spaces in your universal pattern are just as important as the lines. neat!

    thanks!
    -David

  13. #110
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Jamesb,

    You seem really hung up on the FMA guy and an attack with a light club. You don’t need to go to FMA to learn how to use a club or defend against one. All I was saying is you don't get to pick the attackers weapon.
    The mass of a weapon may dictate the way the weapon is used. And yes the path of action may be very straight but to say that it can not be varied or change in the path is illogical and foolish. If we are talking about a weapon with lots of mass it is more likely that it will be thrown on an arcing pattern or in a figure eight pattern. Try it, grab a 2X4, bat, large hammer, or any large blunt weapon with one had and swing it as if you are trying to hit someone. Does it feel better to move it in a figure eight pattern?

    I would be interested in you showing me how you think the technique works or how you understand it to work. Even thought I may have strong opinions it doesn’t’ mean I’m completely close minded.
    Although, my communicate skill maybe limited on the keyboard, I feel my kenpo education is well rounded. I have had some very good 1st generation instructors. I have tested in front of Mr. Parker from blue belt through black. I have been to many Parker seminars, small group classes and even have had private conversations with Mr. Parker before his passing. I’m currently a student of Mr. Mills who’s understanding of kenpo, in my opinion is second to none. This doesn’t mean I can’t have my mind changed. I’m always willing to learn. What I’m not will to do is to cover up flaws in a technique by limiting how the attack goes down. I feel this is irresponsible as an instructor.
    I will try to get in touch so you can prove me wrong.

    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike G
    AKKI Westminster, MD
    cckenpo.com
    410-259-7950

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