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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    I'm intrigued to know what you feel is wrong with this technique?
    You'll be sorry.
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Put me on the list of those that disagree with you sir. Having used it in real life, and teaching to my public safety students who have also used it, assures me of the efficacy of the execution. That being said, the version I use does not utilize the anatomically incorrect right kick to the opposite knee.
    (I have seen your version, so I know the answer in advance, but for the sake of discussion and elucidation...)

    What do you do instead, and why?

    Regards,

    Me.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by blfycdq View Post
    Don't deflect the storm ... check it.

    What I mean by this is when you move out of the way and check/parry the weapon hand keep your hand in a positional check. If you try to grab the weapon hand and the guy is a stick fighter (well he does have a stick) he can reverse his circle and knock your teeth out. To feel is to believe ... we did this in class a few weeks ago with an FMA guy.

    Also moving to 3 gets you out of the attack range, there is also a right eye slice insert here which turns into a parry, etc.

    Kicks are to the groin and knee.
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    Carl
    Fantasy land. Eye slices? while trying to avoid an overhead bludgeon with intent to give you a split personality? I'd take that bet.

    But the most glaring error is this idea someone can 'reverse' their attack. The basis for Ed Parker's "Storm Technique" concept is you're being attacked by a BLUDGEON, not a stick. A bludgeon is defined by the fact its weight, in conjunction with its propelled inertial mass is what makes it a weapon. Somewhere along the line "CLUB" has beed redefined first as a "Stick," and then as a "lightweight stick" as utilized in other arts. IT IS NOT. It is not some thin cylinderical bamboo light weight stick you can twirl and whip around. It is substantially heavy enough to force the attacker's body mechanics in to a significant adjustment in order to control, accelerate, and wield the weapon. Once that process has started, the attacker will be unable to stop a committed attack until the movement is expended or something (like the ground or you) is struck. This is not FMA, this is an American Self-Defense System that focuses on realsitic attacks, not about some guy walking around with a couple of excrima sticks in his back pocket waiting to attack someone. Besides he'd get arrrested for carrying them pretty dam quick anyway. No sir, that is not what the technique is about. It is a glaring misconception in most training of the storm techniques. Try training with something heavy and committ to the attack, and you'll see what I mean.
    Last edited by Doc; 06-27-2007 at 05:20 PM.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Try training with something heavy and committ to the attack, and you'll see what I mean.
    Baseball bat, tire iron...that sort of idea?

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    (I have seen your version, so I know the answer in advance, but for the sake of discussion and elucidation...)

    What do you do instead, and why?

    Regards,

    Me.
    Those who have been around long enough know the original technique utilized two front kicks to the body. One off the front leg to the lower centerline to stop and set him up, and the second off the rear foot to the body to finish. The idea of kicking to the groin from a cat stance, and twisting the body to execute a kinfe edge kick to the right knee with a back fist to the temple? is not anatomically viable. Can it be done? Of course, and it's things like this that keep the chiro's in business.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You'll be sorry.

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    Baseball bat, tire iron...that sort of idea?
    Yes sir absolutely. The plausability of being attack by someone with a neat light stick is pretty out there. The reason street attackers utilize weapons is because the weapon can and will cause damage. A street thug, (even if it was available) is not going to pick up a lightweight stick to try and hit you on the top of your head and split your personality. A 'trained' martial artist with 'sticks' would not utilize this attack, so the idea is moot with regard to the design and execution of the technique. Sometimes many spend so much time on the technique defense, they lose sight of the actual attack intent. In our training I force the students to train with heavy objects, (including baseball bats) to get a sense of the reality of what getting out of the way is all about.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    Those who have been around long enough know the original technique utilized two front kicks to the body. One off the front leg to the lower centerline to stop and set him up, and the second off the rear foot to the body to finish. The idea of kicking to the groin from a cat stance, and twisting the body to execute a kinfe edge kick to the right knee with a back fist to the temple? is not anatomically viable. Can it be done? Of course, and it's things like this that keep the chiro's in business.
    ooo that's rather interesting! Might I ask at what point in time the second kick was changed to the knee rather than body? Or more to the point, what was the rationale behind the change? (presumably to support the commercial curriculum, or to highlight a particular concept?) Are there many besides your own group that still use the original method?

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    ... the most glaring error is this idea someone can 'reverse' their attack. The basis for Ed Parker's "Storm Technique" concept is you're being attacked by a BLUDGEON, not a stick. A bludgeon is defined by the fact its weight, in conjunction with its propelled inertial mass is what makes it a weapon. Somewhere along the line "CLUB" has beed redefined first as a "Stick," and then as a "lightweight stick" as utilized in other arts.
    That actually makes sense, Doc. Usually, when we practice this, the handiest weapon is a light weight stick, so that idea is what gets reinforced just by common usage. Goes back to what someone (can't remember who) said about understanding the nature of the attack.

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    ... the original technique utilized two front kicks to the body. One off the front leg to the lower centerline to stop and set him up, and the second off the rear foot to the body to finish. The idea of kicking to the groin from a cat stance, and twisting the body to execute a kinfe edge kick to the right knee with a back fist to the temple? is not anatomically viable. Can it be done? Of course, and it's things like this that keep the chiro's in business.
    I've always done a left front kick to the bladder, then a right front kick to the knee. But, I looked it up and one write-up has a roundhouse to his knee, the other a knife-edge kick. Thanks for the info on how it was originally done, sir.


    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by JamesB View Post
    ooo that's rather interesting! Might I ask at what point in time the second kick was changed to the knee rather than body? Or more to the point, what was the rationale behind the change? (presumably to support the commercial curriculum, or to highlight a particular concept?) Are there many besides your own group that still use the original method?
    The change was implemented in the late-eighties for a couple of reasons. The primary purpose was because we discovered and I pointed out the double "chicken kick" version had serious implications with regard to arrhythmia when the second kick hits a certain point, in conjunction with the posture created by the attack and initial response. The version ultimately adopted was to support the commercial conversion, and I objected to that as well. However it had already been taught and it was allowed to stand because Parker passed away before he could change it. It is this version that is in his last writings of the commercial system that people are following. The only concession is, this version is safer to teach, albeit not really viable beyond the first kick.

    Our group does not do either the original or the change. We don't do any form of the "Chicken Kick" for anatomical reasons of injury. However it should be pointed out the double front chicken is not injurious to the kicker, (unless you're just old and should keep your fat ass on the ground) but the danger factor to a student training with another beginner makes this technique much too dangerous to practice as is. A properly placed second kick can be lethal. For this reasons I advise all when doing overhead club attacks in techniques to make a fist and place it palm down over their sternum when training.

    We utilize a simpler version for beginners that uses the one kick from the rear in the beginning, and additional mechanisms added as their skill (and control) improves. Although simplistic on the surface, this technique has deadly implications.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    That actually makes sense, Doc. Usually, when we practice this, the handiest weapon is a light weight stick, so that idea is what gets reinforced just by common usage. Goes back to what someone (can't remember who) said about understanding the nature of the attack.

    I've always done a left front kick to the bladder, then a right front kick to the knee. But, I looked it up and one write-up has a roundhouse to his knee, the other a knife-edge kick. Thanks for the info on how it was originally done, sir.


    Dan C
    The version you utilize makes perfectly good sense, anatomically and contextually effectively. Even thinking about the knife edge to the knee makes me crindge. Others recognized there was "something wrong" with the written version and have changed it as well. Just because its in the "manual" doesn't make it right. In the commercial material, instructors were supposed to be smart enough to make changes to the technique 'guidelines.' Glad to know I occassionally make some sense.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: checking the storm

    I like this technique and find it a great way to introduce the beigger to a club defense. I know it works, as I hve perturbed enough people in my life to have used this technique against half of a pool cue, when bouncing in a bar one night.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    It is called "Checking the Storm" and not "Deflecting" for a reason.
    Exactly my point
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    I like this technique and find it a great way to introduce the beigger to a club defense. I know it works, as I hve perturbed enough people in my life to have used this technique against half of a pool cue, when bouncing in a bar one night.
    I think its a pretty good guess that the attacker used the 'heavy' portion of the pool cue.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    There is nothing wrong with changing a technique to work better for you ... as long as you dont remove something that isnt taught somewhere else in the system. IMO.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    I think its a pretty good guess that the attacker used the 'heavy' portion of the pool cue.
    You are correct sir, and if I had been in a bad mood that night I probably would have used that half of a cue as a rectal thermometer. Luckily for him it was a good night, and I only kicked up into his thighs instead fo groin and knee and he got an open backhand instead of a full power back knuckle.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    You know I really need to wake up sometimes. It never dawned on me that everyone wasn't familiar with the chicken kick version. From my perspective, the 'new' version was an afterthought in the late eighties that few had seen. Than I realized from your posts, that was over two decades ago, and now that 'new' version has had a chance to become 'the version.' What some of you call 'history,' is just stuck in my memory somewhere. Man I'm getting old.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

    "It's much easier to quote, than to know." - Ron Chapél


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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Doc View Post
    You know I really need to wake up sometimes. It never dawned on me that everyone wasn't familiar with the chicken kick version. From my perspective, the 'new' version was an afterthought in the late eighties that few had seen. Than I realized from your posts, that was over two decades ago, and now that 'new' version has had a chance to become 'the version.' What some of you call 'history,' is just stuck in my memory somewhere. Man I'm getting old.
    I hear ya brother! We were doing backbreaker in class last week and after a while only half of me was getting back up. Heck I think I am still 1/2 there.
    PARKER - HERMAN - SECK

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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by Rob Broad View Post
    I probably would have used that half of a cue as a rectal thermometer.....
    Creative but major "pucker response."
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    Default Re: checking the storm

    Quote Originally Posted by katsudo_karate View Post
    I hear ya brother! We were doing backbreaker in class last week and after a while only half of me was getting back up. Heck I think I am still 1/2 there.
    Now that's funny! Here's a tip: YOU do Back Breaker, YOU do not have Back Breaker done on you.
    "Nothing is more dangerous than the conscientiously ignorant, or the sincerely stupid." - Martin Luther King Jr.

    "Knowledge speaks but wisdom listens." - Ed Parker Sr.

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