24 & 16 technique system

[wolfenmoon]

Hi

Just a quick question, I have noticed that some kenpo schools teach the EP 24 technique system and others only 16, could somebody please explain to me why this is, and what associations normally tend to teach the 16 technique method.

Many thanks!

[Martin Seck]

The easiest way to sum it up is both teach 154 + 96 extensions but one finishes at 3rd black and one at 5th black.

[wolfenmoon]

Ok, so there are 24 techniques to each belt except yellow, so what are the extensions and can you explain how this works please. I am sorry if this seems a stupid question, but i am a complete beginner to kenpo.

[NickName99]

For the 24 system you start learning the extensions in 1st degree brown.. these are the orange belt extensions .. 1st black is the purple.. second black is the blue and the 3rd black is the green.. there is no extensions for the yellow or brown belts.. making a grand total of 250 self defensives..
96 + 154

for the 16 system you start learning the extension at 2nd black... I believe!
2rd black the purple, 4th the blue and 5th the green.


The 16 system is a little easier to learn and you can advance quicker.
I'm a 24 systemer myself and like it a lot. Slower to get the belts but I find that I'm learning the system more deeply.

James

[Martin Seck]

Ok, so there are 24 techniques to each belt except yellow, so what are the extensions and can you explain how this works please. I am sorry if this seems a stupid question, but i am a complete beginner to kenpo.

An extension is an add on to an existing technique you learned earlier in the system.

[NickName99]

Forgot to add that!

[Martin Seck]

Forgot to add that!

Well you had already covered it so well thought I would add that in case they needed it

[snake_in_dragons_path]

from what ive seen ie mcdojo's
you the longer it takes to pass belts the better you are at the teck's because you spent more time covering them
my first instructer said that you could feasibly cover the system in 3 years also if ya were doing it right and making sure you are getting everything done to perfection you could take 6 months to a year per belt
im ranting i know but what im getting at is that the amount of tecks dont matter if you spending time on them and doing them right you will be fine and confident in what you do
sorry about the long winded message

[wolfenmoon]

Thanks for your reply Martin,

Just so that I am clear, An extension is an "add on" to an existing technique you learned earlier in the system. Does that mean for instance that the techniques for 1st degree brown are identical to those listed under the orange belt, the difference being that the techniques for 1st degree brown have "add on " techniques to the orange, so they would have extra punches, kicks, chokes, locks etc.. It would be basically more moves after the original orange technique had finished thereby giving you a greater range of options for defence and attack for example.

I hope that I have understood this correctly, if not, please could you clarify this for me.

Many thanks!
Craig

[Martin Seck]

Thanks for your reply Martin,

Just so that I am clear, An extension is an "add on" to an existing technique you learned earlier in the system. Does that mean for instance that the techniques for 1st degree brown are identical to those listed under the orange belt, the difference being that the techniques for 1st degree brown have "add on " techniques to the orange, so they would have extra punches, kicks, chokes, locks etc.. It would be basically more moves after the original orange technique had finished thereby giving you a greater range of options for defence and attack for example.

I hope that I have understood this correctly, if not, please could you clarify this for me.

Many thanks!
Craig

Exactly ... the techniques you learn early on are called "Base" techniques.

[hongkongfooey]

For the 24 system you start learning the extensions in 1st degree brown.. these are the orange belt extensions .. 1st black is the purple.. second black is the blue and the 3rd black is the green.. there is no extensions for the yellow or brown belts.. making a grand total of 250 self defensives..
96 + 154

for the 16 system you start learning the extension at 2nd black... I believe!
2rd black the purple, 4th the blue and 5th the green.


The 16 system is a little easier to learn and you can advance quicker.
I'm a 24 systemer myself and like it a lot. Slower to get the belts but I find that I'm learning the system more deeply.

James

Depends on what line you are under.

[NickName99]

I don't really believe that statement. My instructors are not going to hold my hand if I get mugged, robbed or attacked in any way.

That just an excuse to blame politics. Its depends on the person practicing the martial arts. On how fast you advance or learn. Personnel experience from my learning curves and experiences are that I advanced quicker with less material, but retained less. (on a 16 system, WKKA line) Advanced slower but retained more information and more hours on the mat with the 24 system AKLA line)

[NickName99]

Of course some instructors are better than others, but it really depends on the student because there is so many resources you can cross reference. Videos, books, you tube etc. So even if you have a less experienced instructor you can still make up the difference on your own. My greatest teacher has always been the mats. <and this kid named Eric for not being a "good" dummy >

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

I don't really believe that statement. My instructors are not going to hold my hand if I get mugged, robbed or attacked in any way.

That just an excuse to blame politics. Its depends on the person practicing the martial arts. On how fast you advance or learn. Personnel experience from my learning curves and experiences are that I advanced quicker with less material, but retained less. (on a 16 system, WKKA line) Advanced slower but retained more information and more hours on the mat with the 24 system AKLA line)

So, my question is this:
What if there wasnt any belts are ranking systems?
How many techs do you need to be able to defend yourself? The focus should not be the amount of techs you may or may not have,but the principles they teach,how they relate to motion,and how well you can apply them to several types of attacks..

It seems that many people or concerned about the amount of the techs they have,how fast they promote,and the comparrisons of other systems of Kenpo. I have been doing Kenpo for a little while now, and I still learn something new about Delayed Sword everytime I work it.

Kenpo isnt a quick fix found so often in todays microwave society. It is a life long study. This is the time line. The 16 tech system and the 24 tech system both replaced the 32 tech system. They were implemented to help in the transisiton of non Parker Kenpo schools into the Parker system,allowing the schools to keep from losing all of their students in the process.

The only thing this has to do with politics rest on the shoulders of those trying to validate what they do, by declaring to the world that what they do, is the Gospel.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

Of course some instructors are better than others, but it really depends on the student because there is so many resources you can cross reference. Videos, books, you tube etc. So even if you have a less experienced instructor you can still make up the difference on your own. My greatest teacher has always been the mats. <and this kid named Eric for not being a "good" dummy >

The students are only going to be as good as the people they work with. The teacher is a student as well,always learning,always growing. The resources or great,however they are just that,reference material. You can not replace the one on one insight of the instructor. Nor can you judge the instructors skill,or understanding of the material based on the perception of their communication skills.

[NickName99]

This is the point ... it takes a team to build a good student. but the student has to be first a student. They have to inspire to learn. Do their homework(resources) Be a teacher (cross reference and make up their own minds and follow through.) I fully agree with you. It's not how many techniques you know but how well you know the lesson taught with in them.
Of course belt colors show........it doesn't prove a thing.
I would like to see a kenpo without the ranking system.


These steps are exactly what Mr Parker did.. Bruce Lee.. They left their instructors to search for their teams. Cross reference what they knew with outside resources. Studied hard.. became teachers.

"I owe no allegiance to any king, only to my people"

[NickName99]

I love this line.


Nor can you judge the instructors skill,or understanding of the material based on the perception of their communication skills.

I wish I would of said that.

[MARSHALLS KENPO]

This is the point ... it takes a team to build a good student. but the student has to be first a student. They have to inspire to learn. Do their homework(resources) Be a teacher (cross reference and make up their own minds and follow through.) I fully agree with you. It's not how many techniques you know but how well you know the lesson taught with in them.
Of course belt colors show........it doesn't prove a thing.
I would like to see a kenpo without the ranking system.


These steps are exactly what Mr Parker did.. Bruce Lee.. They left their instructors to search for their teams. Cross reference what they knew with outside resources. Studied hard.. became teachers.

"I owe no allegiance to any king, only to my people"

I compleatly agree with your statements Sir.

[Celtic_Crippler]

Thanks for your reply Martin,

Just so that I am clear, An extension is an "add on" to an existing technique you learned earlier in the system. Does that mean for instance that the techniques for 1st degree brown are identical to those listed under the orange belt, the difference being that the techniques for 1st degree brown have "add on " techniques to the orange, so they would have extra punches, kicks, chokes, locks etc.. It would be basically more moves after the original orange technique had finished thereby giving you a greater range of options for defence and attack for example.

I hope that I have understood this correctly, if not, please could you clarify this for me.

Many thanks!
Craig

You are definately on the right track, my brother.

"Additions" and "Extensions" are related to the principle known as the Equation Formula. Simply put, the equation formula states that for any given technique you can prefix, suffix, insert, or even rearrange maneuvers to fit and flow with the ever changing variables of combat.

The thing to remember is that techniques are simply "templates." You should not think that they are meant to go down by-the-numbers if you actually ever have to use them.

Different schools take various approaches on teaching the student to become spontaneous in their reactions. One method is to actually teach and show predetermined "extensions" to already learned techniques. This is another step in helping you learn HOW to think.

The ultimate aim is to learn how to think for yourself and apply the principles taught by the techniques so that you can execute them spontaneously.

I hope that makes sense.

[hongkongfooey]

I don't really believe that statement. My instructors are not going to hold my hand if I get mugged, robbed or attacked in any way.

That just an excuse to blame politics. Its depends on the person practicing the martial arts. On how fast you advance or learn. Personnel experience from my learning curves and experiences are that I advanced quicker with less material, but retained less. (on a 16 system, WKKA line) Advanced slower but retained more information and more hours on the mat with the 24 system AKLA line)

Nope, not an excuse to blame anything. The truth is there is a lot of really bad Kenpo out there. From my experience, not all lines are created equal.
Especially in my area where air Kenpo seems to be king.