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Thread: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

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    Default Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    So here's a question that popped into my mind for no reason the other day. In EPAK short 1, the standard outward block is introduced. In blocking set #1, the outward block is the extended outward block, which by my recollection is more common, has more structural strength, and shields the radial nerve because you're blocking with the meaty part of your forearm.

    I'm trying to remember the first time the extended outward is introduced in a full form and it escapes me (I only remember up to Short 3). One of the first techniques white belts are taught is Sword of Destruction, which again has a right extended outward block. So the question is where does this block first show up in a form, and why is it not present in Short 1 even though the beginner techniques use it?

    Sean

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by seca2man View Post
    So here's a question that popped into my mind for no reason the other day. In EPAK short 1, the standard outward block is introduced. In blocking set #1, the outward block is the extended outward block, which by my recollection is more common, has more structural strength, and shields the radial nerve because you're blocking with the meaty part of your forearm.

    I'm trying to remember the first time the extended outward is introduced in a full form and it escapes me (I only remember up to Short 3). One of the first techniques white belts are taught is Sword of Destruction, which again has a right extended outward block. So the question is where does this block first show up in a form, and why is it not present in Short 1 even though the beginner techniques use it?

    Sean
    The way I use to share this EPAK form with was to have the student start with the first two inward blocks as hammering and then the next set of inward blocks would be thrusting and then you do your direction change using outward vertical blocks then the next set of outward blocks would be outward extended.

    It would have the new student working all the basic blocks and their different methods of execution.

    Just a thought.

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    The old star blocking set? No idea.
    [SIGPIC][/SIGPIC]
    Michael Huffman
    1st Black, AKKI
    www.akki.com

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    execkenpo is offline
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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by seca2man View Post
    So here's a question that popped into my mind for no reason the other day. In EPAK short 1, the standard outward block is introduced. In blocking set #1, the outward block is the extended outward block, which by my recollection is more common, has more structural strength, and shields the radial nerve because you're blocking with the meaty part of your forearm.

    I'm trying to remember the first time the extended outward is introduced in a full form and it escapes me (I only remember up to Short 3). One of the first techniques white belts are taught is Sword of Destruction, which again has a right extended outward block. So the question is where does this block first show up in a form, and why is it not present in Short 1 even though the beginner techniques use it?

    Sean
    You will find the outwatd extended blocks in the last movements of short 2, followed by the half fist strike.

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by seca2man View Post
    So here's a question that popped into my mind for no reason the other day. In EPAK short 1, the standard outward block is introduced. In blocking set #1, the outward block is the extended outward block, which by my recollection is more common, has more structural strength, and shields the radial nerve because you're blocking with the meaty part of your forearm.

    I'm trying to remember the first time the extended outward is introduced in a full form and it escapes me (I only remember up to Short 3). One of the first techniques white belts are taught is Sword of Destruction, which again has a right extended outward block. So the question is where does this block first show up in a form, and why is it not present in Short 1 even though the beginner techniques use it?
    The extended outward shows up in Short 2, when the 1:30 / 10:30 lines are introduced.

    The extended outward is not used in Short 1 (or Long 1) because the vertical outward block is used in the 1 forms. My understanding is that the Vertical Outward block is used in those forms for tradition preservation.

    Another question for you to think about is, where is the vertical outward block used in techniques? And how is it used?

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    I have always executed Rising Blocks
    near the end of Short form 2??
    (Better position to pull the head back for the half-fist stikes).
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    I would guess that the Outward Extended Block
    isn't used until Long Form 3
    Parting Wings (Outward Extended "Chop" Blocks)

    yes, no??
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    If you are asking, Kenpo-Sloth, ... I suppose that description of Parting Wings might be close to the Extended Outward.

    But, I think you should look at the lines in Short 2 and Long 2. At that point in Short 2, your hands should be moving on a horizontal plane. When we get to Long 2, in the same series, we move our hands on the vertical plane. (Chopping Knuckle Punch, to the upwward block, to the eye pokes)

    While I agree that Striking Serpents Head would be presented better with your blocking hand high, Forms are not Techniques, and Techniques are not Forms.

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    I am always asking.

    Sometimes I need a different
    perspective/point of view
    to get me thinking.
    Thanks
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Another question for you to think about is, where is the vertical outward block used in techniques? And how is it used?
    I believe its important to recognize to understand the anatomical advantages and disadvantages of each, that should answer where and why they show up.

    The VOB (Vertical Outward Block) operates in width only. The EOB (Extended Outward Block) operates in width and depth. The VOB is a transitional move for the EOB; the EOB is executed from the VOB.

    The VOB has little structural capacity beyond the framework of the Outer Rim, the edge of which is defined by the vertical line from the shoulder to the hip. The VOB is structurally weak because he deltoid is the only muscle group it has to deal with forces executed in the width zone. The EOB has little execution power before it gets to the shoulder, once again only fueled by the deltoid. Executing the EOB from the VOB allows the (much larger) lattissimus group to come into play.

    Looking at Block Set, the VOB is then also a transitional move from the EOB to the IB (Inward Block). Executing an Inward Block directly from an EOB is weak as well, using only the pectoral group (a flexor). By transitioning back to the VOB we once again allow the extensor groups of the back and shoulder to execute the block. In summary, the VOB is the critical link, the neutral between the more engaged motions that are the IB and EOB. Failure to move through the VOB to execute the IB and EOB will invariably reduce the physical capacity to deal with imparted forces.

    Just my dos centavos.

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF
    Last edited by bujuts; 06-20-2007 at 12:35 PM.

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Huh?

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by michaeledward View Post
    Huh?
    LOL. Make sense? Very important things to understand about these blocks IMHO, but of course its much easier to show in person. I spend a better part of my work day doing technical writing, sorry if it comes out in these brief posts

    Cheers,

    Steven Brown
    UKF

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    The accent is on the outward to build the skill of thrust.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    I am saying that after working and sharing Short Form 1 for over 20 years that I find it very productive to thing outside of the box at times and practice it in other interpretations. You see the techniques, forms and sets do not actually teach the system. They are tools that we use to train the system. As our levels of skill and understanding progress then so should the tools.

    If you learn by the book and train strictly by the book you are limited by the book. And if everything is only worked in an "ideal state" then you never "formulate". That is the need for "what ifs" SGM Parker liked students to think on their own. One of the reasons he gave us the "what If" phase so that we learn to tailor and think outside of the box as long as we do not violate the principles of Kenpo.

    All the basic blocks are introduces and trained at the white belt level and are required for yellow belt as far as I have always known.

    Greg Hilderbrand
    A.K.K.I.

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by G. Hilderbrand View Post
    I am saying that after working and sharing Short Form 1 for over 20 years that I find it very productive to thing outside of the box at times and practice it in other interpretations. You see the techniques, forms and sets do not actually teach the system. They are tools that we use to train the system. As our levels of skill and understanding progress then so should the tools.

    If you learn by the book and train strictly by the book you are limited by the book. And if everything is only worked in an "ideal state" then you never "formulate". That is the need for "what ifs" SGM Parker liked students to think on their own. One of the reasons he gave us the "what If" phase so that we learn to tailor and think outside of the box as long as we do not violate the principles of Kenpo.

    All the basic blocks are introduces and trained at the white belt level and are required for yellow belt as far as I have always known.

    Greg Hilderbrand
    A.K.K.I.
    Great point,
    So is the vertical outward block a major or minor factor block and why?
    Your Brother

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by bujuts View Post
    I believe its important to recognize to understand the anatomical advantages and disadvantages of each, that should answer where and why they show up.

    The VOB (Vertical Outward Block) operates in width only. The EOB (Extended Outward Block) operates in width and depth. The VOB is a transitional move for the EOB; the EOB is executed from the VOB.


    Steven Brown
    UKF
    Please explain why you feel the VOB does not operate in depth or height.

    Thanks
    Brad Marshall

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Great point,
    So is the vertical outward block a major or minor factor block and why?
    Your Brother

    If your using it as a primary block with the intent solely as a block then I would say Major. But not necessarily labeled Major at all times and in all types of use.

    The only answer I can really share regarding Major and or Minor moves is this.

    All moves have the ability to be Major. But not all Moves can be Major. You must have some Minors in there. Hope this makes sense.

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Please explain why you feel the VOB does not operate in depth or height.

    Thanks
    Brad Marshall
    You are absolutely correct on this one.

    Very good observation.

    And a valuable post with much insight.

    Your Kenpo is strong ... LOL.

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by G. Hilderbrand View Post
    If your using it as a primary block with the intent solely as a block then I would say Major. But not necessarily labeled Major at all times and in all types of use.

    The only answer I can really share regarding Major and or Minor moves is this.

    All moves have the ability to be Major. But not all Moves can be Major. You must have some Minors in there. Hope this makes sense.
    Sir your knowledge is second only to your wisdom
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: Outward vs Extended Outward blocks

    Quote Originally Posted by G. Hilderbrand View Post
    You are absolutely correct on this one.

    Very good observation.

    And a valuable post with much insight.

    Your Kenpo is strong ... LOL.
    Not when it comes to defending myself against my wife
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

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