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Thread: Techniques using weapons:

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    Question Techniques using weapons:

    Hi all ,
    Last night was weapons training and as usual, I had many questions (which popped into my head on the way home), but here is one about the system instead of a move or strike.

    Do we have any Weapons Techniques in American Kenpo??
    (I'm referring to using a weapon as part of the technique, not a disarm or an open hand defense against XYZ weapon.)

    If weapons are an extension of our limbs, then shouldn't we train with 'Weapons Techniques' as well as Weapons Forms/Sets??

    I've only seen forms w/ weapons so I apologize if 'Weapons Techniques' are part of the system, I'm only a novice
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    There are weapons taught in EPAK.

    They include staff (or bo) taught in staff set. Double sticks taught in Long 7, and double knives in Long 8.

    Not every EPAK school teaches these forms and sets. However, try incorperating a weapon into any self defense technique. The results will surprise you. The body mechanics for using the weapons are no differnt, the only thing that really changes is the range depending on the weapon.


    -Josh
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by dubljay
    However, try incorperating a weapon into any self defense technique. The results will surprise you.
    -Josh

    Yes Sir,
    That is exactly my point
    Thanks for your reply

    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    After having a very brief experience with Doce Paras Eskrima some of the self defense techniques look quite similar.

    Evading the Storm reminds me very much of how one defends against an over head strike in Doce Paras from the footwork to the hand positions.

    Obstructing the Storm reminds me of some of the weapon strips and eskrido (spelling?) used as well.

    Clipping the Storm fits into this as well. In Doce Paras I was taught to 'chase the line', meaning if someone pokes with the end of a stick, you defelct and counter with a thrusting strike of your own. In Clipping the Storm after you offstep and parry the strike, you charge back in on the same line of the strike.

    -Josh
    Holding onto anger is like grasping a hot coal with the intent of throwing it at someone else; you are the one who gets burned. - Buddha

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    Question Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Thank you Sir,

    A Question to everyone:
    Do you feel that Modern Arnis complements American Kenpo?

    I ask because I have the opportunity to take Modern Arnis lessons at my Kenpo School, but I'm only interested if I could apply what I learn to Kenpo and vise versa.
    I've only been training for 1 1/2 years, but Arnis looks like a lot of fun for some cross training.
    What do you think???
    Last edited by Kenpo-Sloth; 08-03-2005 at 01:09 PM.
    What have I learned from this???

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    Thumbs up Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Sloth
    Thank you Sir,

    A Question to everyone:
    Do you feel that Modern Arnis complements American Kenpo?

    I ask because I have the opportunity to take Modern Arnis lessons at my Kenpo School, but I'm only interested it if I could apply what I learn to Kenpo and vise versa.
    I've only been training for 1 1/2 years, but Arnis looks like a lot of fun for some cross training.
    What do you think???
    I have a black belt in Modern Arnis, having tested directly under Remy Presas and a testing board, and I can say first-hand that Modern Arnis is an awesome compliment to your Kenpo training. Arnis will help in your joint locking and throwing techniques, close-quarter fighting, and methods of dealing with weapons attacks (ie. clubs, knives).

    One of the unique features about Modern Arnis is that more time is actually devoted to weapons training than empty-hand training (although movements done with weapons have empty-hand translations and applicability). While this may sound odd, MOST kenpoists don't spend enough time becoming skilled with sticks and knives. The problem, of course, is that to learn how to effectively deal with a weapon, one should become "well-versed" with the weapon itself. To get this knowledge in American Kenpo, one needs to find a competent instructor with these essential skills.

    So my answer is - ABSOLUTELY take it on. Be aware, however, that Kenpo should remain your base system, and you should use your cross-referencing in Arnis to learn more about Kenpo, as any perceived weaknesses in Kenpo are, in my opinion, PERCEIVED only.

    Hope that helps.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com


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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Modern Arnis is an awesome compliment to your Kenpo training.
    That's what I was looking for


    So my answer is - ABSOLUTELY take it on. Be aware, however, that Kenpo should remain your base system, and you should use your cross-referencing in Arnis to learn more about Kenpo, as any perceived weaknesses in Kenpo are, in my opinion, PERCEIVED only.

    Hope that helps.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

    That helps immensely,
    Thank you Sir
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    No worries, and best of luck in your training.

    Say hi to Mr. Elmer for me.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Say hi to Mr. Elmer for me.
    Sorry to say, I no longer train with Master Elmer, however he is an excellent instructor and good friend.
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Jamie is right! Modern Arnis is a FINE system for teaching knives and clubs! No doubt about it.
    But there are factions of American Kenpo Karate that have a good healthy dose of clubs and knives curriculum where you don't need to either:
    Cross train (Which....I've got NOTHING against that)
    or
    Wait until a high ranking black belt before really getting into...

    Everyone knows I'm going to endorse the curriculum of the AKKI. That's where I'm from... like my Grandpa always used to say: "Dance with the one that brought ya." For me, that's Mr. Paul Mills, his student and my instructor Mr. John Connolly and the AKKI.
    The club and knife curriculum in the AKKI comes in three basic levels. There are other blokes here from the AKKI that can give a MUCH MUCH better/more informed batch of info on the club/knife curriculum in the AKKI, such as John Connolly and/or Alan Jacob. Both the club and knife curriculum are crafted to be very similar in the kind of motion they exhibit, also running a close paralel to the way we move empty handed; but of course certain things are different because the nature of each weapon is unique. These curricula run the gammut of Kenpo: basics, Self defense techs (both defensive and offensive in nature), sets, drills, exercises, forms, concepts/principles....etc. It's very well developed and thought out and there are lots of people throughout the association that are excellent at presenting and teaching it. If you'd like to learn more feel free to go to the Lineage section of Kenpo Talk and from there to the "Parker-Mills" section....and then ask away. Questions are always welcome! OR you could contact "Fast Mover"..aka: John Connolly or Alan Jacob, both of whom learn this material straight from their instructor Mr. Mills. They're both Great about answering questions. Also going to www.akki.com will turn up a wealth of info if you are interested in anything having to do with the association or what we offer.

    Two other associations/lineages that get into doing a knife/club curriculum are Mr. Mike Pick's association: the U.F.K.. He was a first generation Kenpo student of SGM Parker and has the respect of many. He's said to be known for his ability with a knife, but for me....this is totally 3rd hand opinion. I've never had the honor of meeting Mr. Pick or anyone from his association. Also: From what I understand there's a good deal of knife and club work in those from Mr. Huk Plannas' lineage. I know even less about these folks to be honest, and again....I've not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Plannas; but like Mr. Pick....he's a first gen. under Mr. Parker and has the respect of many. From what I understand his curriculum/knowledge of stick and knife work mainly stems from Mr. Plannas' extensive background in the Filipino martial arts like Kali/Escrima....and now has a "Kenpo" flavor to it.
    IF there's any folks from these two camps that'd like to chime in here, now'd be a good time. Like I said, my info on them and what they do with knives and clubs is limited.

    Your Brother
    John
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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    i saw one of the older students in class using numb-chucks for some reason i thought numb-chucks was used in kung-fu, jeet-kune do and tai kwon do.
    It does not matter where the Martial art comes from. if it can help you defend yourself it is worth learning( Bruce Lee ) May the Force Be With You

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Latinvipers View Post
    i saw one of the older students in class using numb-chucks for some reason i thought numb-chucks was used in kung-fu, jeet-kune do and tai kwon do.
    Nunchaku
    (I know it Does sound like "Num-chucks" when most Americans say it, but it's "Nun-chuck", like a small....very religious....woodland creature. AND the "u" on the end is silent.)

    Their origin is not in Kung-Fu, though there are very similar weapons in a few of the Chinese arts. The nunchaku comes from Okinawa, the birthplace of Karate-do.

    Jeet Kune Do: by the very precepts that Mr. Lee set down for what Jeet Kune Do is and isn't.... it's Not a system, but a philosophy and a paradigm about martial arts training. The 'system' that he taught was Jun-Fan Gung-Fu (Jun-Fan being Mr. Lee's Cantonese name) Those who adhere to one or both often do pick up the nunchaku...but only because Mr. Lee made use of them and became known for them in his movies; and MOST in JKD/JF-Gung-fu want to emulate him. ((can you blame'm?))

    Tae Kwan Do: traditional/original Tae Kwan Do never used weapons! None.
    Later, some masters studied Chinese weaponry or Okinawan/Japanese weaponry and began to incorporate it into their systems. To my understanding, the ONLY Korean martial arts that Began with weapons in their system were Kuk Sool Won....which draws largely from Chinese weaponry, and Hwarang-Do.....which draws largely from both Chinese and Japanese weaponry and probably has the strongest claim to 'indigenous' weapon use (as in NOT borrowed from other systems). Neither of these systems are forms of Tae Kwan Do. The system of Hapkido also uses weapons, but it's a Korean adaptation of the Daito Ryu Aikijujutsu..... which has weapons as well....so even those weapon skills come from Japan.
    Even still, NONE of these arts listed under the Tae Kwan Do section make use of the Nunchaku.
    zero.

    The nunchaku was a traditional "Kobudo" weapon of the Okinawan islands. Originally it was a wheat threasher used by farmers. When the Japanese occupation of the Islands made it illegal to own standard tools of war (Swords, bows & arrows, spears/halbards...etc.) and confiscated all of these in order to crush any forming rebellion/resistence from the populace, the "Te" (Predecessor of Kara-Te) began to turn their farming and fishing tools into weapons and systematize their use.

    IN Kenpo?
    Yes, Mr. Parker wrote a book and developed curriculum for using the Nunchaku.
    Odd thing though, I don't think it was ever actually "Officially" put into the curriculum of EPAK. I really don't know why.
    Perhaps a senior, or someone "in the know" could tell us???

    Thanks

    Your Brother
    John
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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    I heard an anecdote about Ed Parker once, sitting in a Chinese restaurant, and was asked about use of weapons in Kenpo. I believe the story went, he executed a bit of a form or technique with a salt shaker, explaining that, when your body is properly trained, ANYTHING you can hold becomes an extension of your body, and therefore a weapon. So there was no need to train weapons specifically, train the body properly and improvise if needed.

    I would rather trian my body as is, then extend it if needed - rather than training it as extended (with a weapon) and then have to adapt to the body alone in a crisis.


    And IMHO it is also impractical because carrying weapons is mostly illegal.

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook View Post
    I have a black belt in Modern Arnis, having tested directly under Remy Presas and a testing board, and I can say first-hand that Modern Arnis is an awesome compliment to your Kenpo training. Arnis will help in your joint locking and throwing techniques, close-quarter fighting, and methods of dealing with weapons attacks (ie. clubs, knives).

    One of the unique features about Modern Arnis is that more time is actually devoted to weapons training than empty-hand training (although movements done with weapons have empty-hand translations and applicability). While this may sound odd, MOST kenpoists don't spend enough time becoming skilled with sticks and knives. The problem, of course, is that to learn how to effectively deal with a weapon, one should become "well-versed" with the weapon itself. To get this knowledge in American Kenpo, one needs to find a competent instructor with these essential skills.

    So my answer is - ABSOLUTELY take it on. Be aware, however, that Kenpo should remain your base system, and you should use your cross-referencing in Arnis to learn more about Kenpo, as any perceived weaknesses in Kenpo are, in my opinion, PERCEIVED only.

    Hope that helps.

    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com
    Brother Jamie is correct in my view. Cross training in general will increase your effectiveness in Kenpo. You will at least understand what they are teaching and how to formulate against it.
    Brad Marshall SP
    KKFI

    trgodbm@yahoo.com

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    I would rather trian my body as is, then extend it if needed - rather than training it as extended (with a weapon) and then have to adapt to the body alone in a crisis.
    I started this thread 2 years ago and since then
    I've had some Arnis training.
    I think you would be much better
    prepared to defend against particular weapons,
    if you had used those weapons yourself.

    In our Arnis classes, we have a saying.....
    it goes something like this,
    "If you use that weapon, it's mine"
    So you may find yourself with the weapon
    you took away from an attacker and
    his buddy coming at you with another weapon.

    I'm all for using a weapon in training, if only
    to learn, how it feels, the grip, the speed and
    of course respect because it can kill you.


    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    And IMHO it is also impractical because carrying weapons is mostly illegal.
    How about your environment??
    There are no weapons??
    Your story gave the example of a salt shaker
    and mentioned that anything is a weapon.

    Just my opinion (2 years later).
    What have I learned from this???

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    And IMHO it is also impractical because carrying weapons is mostly illegal.
    Looking at Nebraska law, I can carry a blade up to 3.5 inches if it isn't concealed. All of my carry knives are below 3.5 inches, so weapon availability isn't exactly a problem.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John View Post
    Jamie is right! Modern Arnis is a FINE system for teaching knives and clubs! No doubt about it.
    But there are factions of American Kenpo Karate that have a good healthy dose of clubs and knives curriculum where you don't need to either:
    Cross train (Which....I've got NOTHING against that)
    or
    Wait until a high ranking black belt before really getting into...

    Everyone knows I'm going to endorse the curriculum of the AKKI. That's where I'm from... like my Grandpa always used to say: "Dance with the one that brought ya." For me, that's Mr. Paul Mills, his student and my instructor Mr. John Connolly and the AKKI.
    The club and knife curriculum in the AKKI comes in three basic levels. There are other blokes here from the AKKI that can give a MUCH MUCH better/more informed batch of info on the club/knife curriculum in the AKKI, such as John Connolly and/or Alan Jacob. Both the club and knife curriculum are crafted to be very similar in the kind of motion they exhibit, also running a close paralel to the way we move empty handed; but of course certain things are different because the nature of each weapon is unique. These curricula run the gammut of Kenpo: basics, Self defense techs (both defensive and offensive in nature), sets, drills, exercises, forms, concepts/principles....etc. It's very well developed and thought out and there are lots of people throughout the association that are excellent at presenting and teaching it. If you'd like to learn more feel free to go to the Lineage section of Kenpo Talk and from there to the "Parker-Mills" section....and then ask away. Questions are always welcome! OR you could contact "Fast Mover"..aka: John Connolly or Alan Jacob, both of whom learn this material straight from their instructor Mr. Mills. They're both Great about answering questions. Also going to www.akki.com will turn up a wealth of info if you are interested in anything having to do with the association or what we offer.

    Two other associations/lineages that get into doing a knife/club curriculum are Mr. Mike Pick's association: the U.F.K.. He was a first generation Kenpo student of SGM Parker and has the respect of many. He's said to be known for his ability with a knife, but for me....this is totally 3rd hand opinion. I've never had the honor of meeting Mr. Pick or anyone from his association. Also: From what I understand there's a good deal of knife and club work in those from Mr. Huk Plannas' lineage. I know even less about these folks to be honest, and again....I've not had the pleasure of meeting Mr. Plannas; but like Mr. Pick....he's a first gen. under Mr. Parker and has the respect of many. From what I understand his curriculum/knowledge of stick and knife work mainly stems from Mr. Plannas' extensive background in the Filipino martial arts like Kali/Escrima....and now has a "Kenpo" flavor to it.
    IF there's any folks from these two camps that'd like to chime in here, now'd be a good time. Like I said, my info on them and what they do with knives and clubs is limited.

    Your Brother
    John
    that was some asome info thanks alot, i didn't know much about those other arts.
    It does not matter where the Martial art comes from. if it can help you defend yourself it is worth learning( Bruce Lee ) May the Force Be With You

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Kenpo-Sloth View Post

    How about your environment??
    There are no weapons??
    Your story gave the example of a salt shaker
    and mentioned that anything is a weapon.

    Just my opinion (2 years later).
    Do you have salt shaker drills or techniques? How about cell phone set LOL?

    But you are exactly stating my point. The environment is full of weapons. Train the BODY well enough and ANYTHING else can be a good weapon.

    But I don't see how training to hit with a 2 foot extension to my arm is going to help me use my arm itself to its maximum efficiency. I guess I'm not sold on the "training with weapons makes me a better open-hand fighter" idea.

    Are the mechanics of the arm and hand at all similar between a strike with a stick and a punch? Just the superficial movement/relationships of the bones and muscles, are they even the same? I suspect not, and I suspect that the subconcious and proprioceptive mechanisms are completely different.

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by Blindside View Post
    Looking at Nebraska law, I can carry a blade up to 3.5 inches if it isn't concealed. All of my carry knives are below 3.5 inches, so weapon availability isn't exactly a problem.

    Lamont

    I did not know that. What is your source? Does it give any information about the legal implications of using that knife for self-defense?

    How long does it take you to deploy that weapon from where you carry it, from the moment you identify a lethal threat through bringing it into position to attack or defend? How much ground can an attacker cover in that amount of time?

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    Default Re: Techniques using weapons:

    Quote Originally Posted by DavidCC View Post
    Do you have salt shaker drills or techniques? How about cell phone set LOL?

    But you are exactly stating my point. The environment is full of weapons. Train the BODY well enough and ANYTHING else can be a good weapon.

    But I don't see how training to hit with a 2 foot extension to my arm is going to help me use my arm itself to its maximum efficiency. I guess I'm not sold on the "training with weapons makes me a better open-hand fighter" idea.

    Are the mechanics of the arm and hand at all similar between a strike with a stick and a punch? Just the superficial movement/relationships of the bones and muscles, are they even the same? I suspect not, and I suspect that the subconcious and proprioceptive mechanisms are completely different.
    A stick and punch, not so much, a stick and a handsword, much moreso.

    Training in a weapon based system has helped my footwork, ability to "read" body language visually, and increased my tactile sensitivity, but those wouldn't be useful against an unarmed opponent, so feel free to disregard.

    Lamont
    Pekiti Tirsia Kali and Kenpo Karate
    www.blackbirdmartialarts.com

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