Shintai Ryu Martial Arts Association

[acq111]

Does anyone know anything about this assoc. Shintai Ryu Martial Arts Assoc. (Shintairyu.com) There is somethng called Kan Shu Kenpo. What is the difference in this and American Kenpo?

Thanks,

Nick

[Martin Seck]

From what I was told ... and this is 3rd hand information. Is those people took the IKCA material and changed it a bit to make their own system.

Take it with a grain of salt but ...

[acq111]

From what I was told ... and this is 3rd hand information. Is those people took the IKCA material and changed it a bit to make their own system.

Take it with a grain of salt but ...

This is the system I'm learning. It seems like pretty good stuff, and the tournaments are big. Usually around 300 competitors. Am I being robbed from my Kenpo experience. I this still recognized as true Kenpo in the Kenpo community, or is it sort of a black sheep?

Sorry for asking so many questions lately, I just like to be informed, and I want to know all aspects of what I'm learning.

Thanks,

Nick

[Dr. Dave in da house]

I don't know anything about the shintai kenpo group...they don't seem to be associated with shintai-do in any way, which was a quasi-religious group studying Japanese MA to achieve spiritual union with their navels.

As for IKCA vs Mainstream kenpo...depends on who you ask. ICKA is an abbreviated form of a mainstream, broader version. Good or bad? Depends on who you ask. If you're taking kenpo for self-defense, I am of the opinion it won't really matter. People, in my experience, either "get it", or they don't. Whether you feed them a boxing combo, a 55-tech cirriculum, or 154 tech cirriculum, it won't really help or hurt them for the one or two times in their lives they may actually use it.

As a long-time student of the mainstream stuff, and more recently one of the "progressive" versions of it, I am prone to favor the hobbyist and academic value of what I'm in, as compared to the pared-down ICKA version. That being said, I've seen some bad-a$$ed dudes and some useless dudes come from each side, so I think it ultimately boils down to the individuals warrior instincts. A willingness to get into a ditch and get bloody up to the waist if need be. The rest is really hobby.

The question you would need to ask as a hobbyist is...do I prefer checkers, or chess?

Be good,

Dave

[acq111]

I don't know anything about the shintai kenpo group...they don't seem to be associated with shintai-do in any way, which was a quasi-religious group studying Japanese MA to achieve spiritual union with their navels.

As for IKCA vs Mainstream kenpo...depends on who you ask. ICKA is an abbreviated form of a mainstream, broader version. Good or bad? Depends on who you ask. If you're taking kenpo for self-defense, I am of the opinion it won't really matter. People, in my experience, either "get it", or they don't. Whether you feed them a boxing combo, a 55-tech cirriculum, or 154 tech cirriculum, it won't really help or hurt them for the one or two times in their lives they may actually use it.

As a long-time student of the mainstream stuff, and more recently one of the "progressive" versions of it, I am prone to favor the hobbyist and academic value of what I'm in, as compared to the pared-down ICKA version. That being said, I've seen some bad-a$$ed dudes and some useless dudes come from each side, so I think it ultimately boils down to the individuals warrior instincts. A willingness to get into a ditch and get bloody up to the waist if need be. The rest is really hobby.

The question you would need to ask as a hobbyist is...do I prefer checkers, or chess?

Be good,

Dave

I prefer chess, but there are no chess schools around here! LOL...I'm happy with what I'm doing. Like you said I believe I do have that warrior instinct, and I like to go into things whole heartedly. I will just be the best that I can at what I'm doing....

[Martin Seck]

"No partner required.

The Kan Shu Kenpo Karate course makes an excellent stand alone or add on system. The course is demonstated on 5 video tapes containing 47 base techniques plus a short form per level. The material is most similar to American
Kenpo, the forms mainly Chinese, combine the two and you have Kan Shu.
Hard hitting, simple and effective, the Kan Shu course to 1st Deg. Black Belt
( 5 tapes ) sells for $129.95 for the set, single dvd's are $34.95, all pricing includes
Priority Mail s/h. "

Here is the founders info: Who ranked him in Kenpo?!
Instructor Info:
Sho Dai Soke John Cozatt began his Martial Arts training at age 11 with James McGlucas, a Black Belt in Judo. Soke presently teaches only Jiu-Jitsu, from his Dojo in the West Virginia mountains. Soke is the founder of the Renzoku Jiu-Jitsu system and Shintai Ryu Martial Arts Association, as well as the IRJJA.
Rankings:
Soke holds Dan rankings in Aiki Ju-Jitsu, Goshin Ryu Ju-Jitsu, Judo, and Kenpo. Soke also holds Kyu rank in Yoshitsune Ju-Jitsu and a Brown Sash in Pai Lum Kung Fu. Soke was named Founder of the Year by the EUSA International Black Belt Hall of Fame in the year 2000 in honor of the Renzoku Jiu-Jitsu system.

Here are some clips of Cozatt's system.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cozatt

I dont see the relationship to American Kenpo, far from it, but if you are happy with what you are learning that is what is important.

[acq111]

"No partner required.

The Kan Shu Kenpo Karate course makes an excellent stand alone or add on system. The course is demonstated on 5 video tapes containing 47 base techniques plus a short form per level. The material is most similar to American
Kenpo, the forms mainly Chinese, combine the two and you have Kan Shu.
Hard hitting, simple and effective, the Kan Shu course to 1st Deg. Black Belt
( 5 tapes ) sells for $129.95 for the set, single dvd's are $34.95, all pricing includes
Priority Mail s/h. "

Here is the founders info: Who ranked him in Kenpo?!
Instructor Info:
Sho Dai Soke John Cozatt began his Martial Arts training at age 11 with James McGlucas, a Black Belt in Judo. Soke presently teaches only Jiu-Jitsu, from his Dojo in the West Virginia mountains. Soke is the founder of the Renzoku Jiu-Jitsu system and Shintai Ryu Martial Arts Association, as well as the IRJJA.
Rankings:
Soke holds Dan rankings in Aiki Ju-Jitsu, Goshin Ryu Ju-Jitsu, Judo, and Kenpo. Soke also holds Kyu rank in Yoshitsune Ju-Jitsu and a Brown Sash in Pai Lum Kung Fu. Soke was named Founder of the Year by the EUSA International Black Belt Hall of Fame in the year 2000 in honor of the Renzoku Jiu-Jitsu system.

Here are some clips of Cozatt's system.

http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=cozatt

I dont see the relationship to American Kenpo, far from it, but if you are happy with what you are learning that is what is important.

I don't think that is the system we are learning. I have seen his American Kenpo Shodan certificates all the way up to 5th dan. I will have to get clarification tonight in class.. I also saw that on the website. Those clips don;t look like anything that we or anyone else in class have learned so far. I'll let youknow what i come up with.....

[Martin Seck]

Thats cool, ask him who he trained with and promoted him in Kenpo.

The "dan" titles are Japanese in origin ... it could be a version of Tracy's you are learning.

American Kenpo calls them "degree" and uses a totally different "title" system.

For exampe I am a 5th degree black belt also and the title is Associate Professor. I started in 1976 and just got my 5th last year (slow learner I guess).

[acq111]

Ok, I just emailed my instructor and he said we use the Universal Kenpo Karate Association's Curricullum. They have certain requirements for their belts, but he says he also has certain requirements for us as students. He teaches us more techniques that the curricullum asks for. We also use the same American Kenpo patch on our uniforms. He did say it is a variation of the EPAK system. Whatever right! It has the word Kenpo in it so it must be good stuff...LOL... Like you said I'm happy with what I'm learning, and I will get to compete in tournaments.

Thanks!

Nick

[Rob Broad]

For exampe I am a 5th degree black belt also and the title is Associate Professor. I started in 1976 and just got my 5th last year (slow learner I guess).

Slow to learn.. slow to forget

[Martin Seck]

Slow to learn.. slow to forget

I agree. How long did it take you Rob? The journey never ends.

[acq111]

Maybe this helps!! Sorry i'm just tryin to end my confusion. There is a form called the master for I see a few of the students doing. It is basically a combination of a bunch of the self defense tech's. Is there a master form in your Kenpo?

[Martin Seck]

Maybe this helps!! Sorry i'm just tryin to end my confusion. There is a form called the master for I see a few of the students doing. It is basically a combination of a bunch of the self defense tech's. Is there a master form in your Kenpo?

No in EPAK there is no "master" form, however in the IKCA yes there is a Master form just like you describe.

EPAK (Ed Parker American Kenpo) Has many different forms and sets. Actually check out this page for what we learn.

http://www.ltatum.com/beltchart.html

[acq111]

No in EPAK there is no "master" form, however in the IKCA yes there is a Master form just like you describe.

EPAK (Ed Parker American Kenpo) Has many different forms and sets. Actually check out this page for what we learn.

http://www.ltatum.com/beltchart.html

I guess that settles it for me then. I'll stick to what I'm doing for now, and hopefully somewhere down the road there will be an EPAK school near me. One of you guys come to Manteno, IL and open up a school...LOL...

[Celtic_Crippler]

The question you would need to ask as a hobbyist is...do I prefer checkers, or chess?

Dave

I'm curious, just what schools or organizations do you consider "checkers" and which ones do you consider "chess?"

An accomplished chess player can beat you in less than 5 moves, so exactly what are you basing your opinion on?

acq111
It really sounds like you may be learning a "mix" from different organizations. This is not uncommon in the fragmented world of Kenpo/Kempo. The "master form" is usually associated with the IKCA, that's not to say that other systems or schools don't have one. It's quite logical and practical to incorporate self-defense techniques into a form for practice when a partner is not available and to help build muscle memory. Actually, EPAK does indeed incorporate some, but not all of it's technqiues into some of it's forms as well. I believe the Tracey system does as well, but my experience there is a little more limited.

You will know you're studying "kenpo" if you are being taught the principles behind the techinques. If you hear terms like "marriage of gravity" for instance. Another clue is to check your lineage, which I believe you stated you have done and your instructor can trace his/her roots back to Parker, Chow, Mitose, or any combination thereof.

I hope this puts your mind at ease so that you can now focus more on your studies.

[Blindside]

No in EPAK there is no "master" form, however in the IKCA yes there is a Master form just like you describe.

According to my google-fu, a Bernie Gorak shows up off a IKCA newletter as getting his promotion to orange in 97. Maybe the master form came from there....

[Martin Seck]

According to my google-fu, a Bernie Gorak shows up off a IKCA newletter as getting his promotion to orange in 97. Maybe the master form came from there....

Probably true.

[acq111]

Probably true.

You know, it surprises me to see someone show up on this guestbook without one small scrap of intelligence, but it happens every now and then. First, SGM Parker was alive when the concept of the IKCA was put together, and supported Chuck in his decision to start it. These two guys were very close, and remained that way until Eds untimely death. To say that Chuck has not earned his 10th, whether in American Kenpo or in our IKCA is a slap in the face to him and every other REAL Kenpoist out there. Chuck is one of the few ORIGINAL people left, one of the FEW who received a 7th deg from Ed Parker. One of the VERY FEW who did not abandon Ed when things were not so rosey. If Chuck hasnt earned the right to wear a 10th, then prove it. Also, Chuck is NOT claiming to be the Senior GrandMaster of American Kenpo. He is the Senior GrandMaster of Chinese Kenpo under the auspices of the IKCA. AND, he serves as the Senior GrandMaster of the Black Karate Federation, an honor bestowed by the great Kenpoists of that organization. Please sir, if you want to sound halfway credible, do your homework before you come to play with the big boys. GaryDate: 23:43:22, May 11

This is a post i found on another site. This is also confirmed as the system we are learning. My instructor however did not learn from tapes. He had private instruction with SGM Chuck and la Rieu (I think I spelled that right). So, I think that this is quality material. The forms and seld defense tech's are a bit different than what you guys are doing, but i hope I will still be welcome in this forum...

Nick

[Martin Seck]

You know, it surprises me to see someone show up on this guestbook without one small scrap of intelligence, but it happens every now and then. First, SGM Parker was alive when the concept of the IKCA was put together, and supported Chuck in his decision to start it. These two guys were very close, and remained that way until Eds untimely death. To say that Chuck has not earned his 10th, whether in American Kenpo or in our IKCA is a slap in the face to him and every other REAL Kenpoist out there. Chuck is one of the few ORIGINAL people left, one of the FEW who received a 7th deg from Ed Parker. One of the VERY FEW who did not abandon Ed when things were not so rosey. If Chuck hasnt earned the right to wear a 10th, then prove it. Also, Chuck is NOT claiming to be the Senior GrandMaster of American Kenpo. He is the Senior GrandMaster of Chinese Kenpo under the auspices of the IKCA. AND, he serves as the Senior GrandMaster of the Black Karate Federation, an honor bestowed by the great Kenpoists of that organization. Please sir, if you want to sound halfway credible, do your homework before you come to play with the big boys. GaryDate: 23:43:22, May 11

This is a post i found on another site. This is also confirmed as the system we are learning. My instructor however did not learn from tapes. He had private instruction with SGM Chuck and la Rieu (I think I spelled that right). So, I think that this is quality material. The forms and seld defense tech's are a bit different than what you guys are doing, but i hope I will still be welcome in this forum...

Nick

Call Vic Leroux and ask him. He will be happy to tell you about Kan Shu Kenpo and the founder. Then you can avoid hear-say and get it from the source of who he earned his rank from. Here is his phone number (714)229-0372 which is publically posted on Karate connection and of course everyone is welcome here. Don't sweat it.

[Celtic_Crippler]

My instructor however did not learn from tapes. He had private instruction with SGM Chuck and la Rieu (I think I spelled that right). So, I think that this is quality material. The forms and seld defense tech's are a bit different than what you guys are doing, but i hope I will still be welcome in this forum...

Nick

Do as Katsudo suggests. I can vouch for the fact that Vic LeRoux will talk to you. He's always answered the phone when I call.

You are, of course, welcome on this forum. There are IKCA members that post here, EPAK, Tracy, Kara-Ho, Sam-Pai, Japanese oriented, Chinese oriented....you name it...there's all kinds of Kenpo/Kempo people here on KT. As long as you're respectful of other members and don't indulge in "flaming", "bashing", or "trolling" you will be accepted and welcome.