tracy's kenpo vs american kenpo

[ct111]

what is the differance between tracy's and american kempo systems? and does anyone know of an american kenpo dojo near st.louis MO?

[Gary A Brewer]

what is the differance between tracy's and american kempo systems? and does anyone know of an american kenpo dojo near st.louis MO?

Hi,
Lots, if you want to learn more about Tracy's Go To www.sanjosekenpo.com

Then you can read their articles and find out more and maybe talk on their forum.

Regards, Gary

[Miyu]

Hi,
Lots, if you want to learn more about Tracy's Go To www.sanjosekenpo.com

Then you can read their articles and find out more and maybe talk on their forum.

Or he can come back here and share what he learns.

[Latinvipers]

good site, i didn't know kenpo had samurai background, so does that make us some what of a samurai?

[Blindside]

good site, i didn't know kenpo had samurai background, so does that make us some what of a samurai?

Lets just say that the origins of our kenpo are somewhat arguable, and that the "samurai" background is one groups take on it, others would greatly greatly disagree.

Studying kenpo and saying that you are somehow related to the samurai is about the equivelent of dropping your earl grey teabag into your microwaved cup of water and thinking you are somehow related to a chado master, culturally and historically two completely different things.

Lamont

[Latinvipers]

Lets just say that the origins of our kenpo are somewhat arguable, and that the "samurai" background is one groups take on it, others would greatly greatly disagree.

Studying kenpo and saying that you are somehow related to the samurai is about the equivelent of dropping your earl grey teabag into your microwaved cup of water and thinking you are somehow related to a chado master, culturally and historically two completely different things.

Lamont

lol

[Jim Hanna]

Lets just say that the origins of our kenpo are somewhat arguable, and that the "samurai" background is one groups take on it, others would greatly greatly disagree.

Studying kenpo and saying that you are somehow related to the samurai is about the equivelent of dropping your earl grey teabag into your microwaved cup of water and thinking you are somehow related to a chado master, culturally and historically two completely different things.

Lamont

Well, your analogy of a tea bag may impress some but does not work for me. Thats the way of analogies. There is zen in some people's practice of kenpo. It is reflected in the salute, right fist covered by left hand. Now, that certainly does not make one related to a chado master...or, perhaps it does. It depends upon whether it is meaningful for you, or merely some sort of quaint gesture.

Its the same with applying the samaurai fighting spirit and code to Kenpo. It is alive for some of us and not alive for others.

I personally feel that anyone that attempts to live his or her life by the demanding code of bushido, keeps at least a little bit of the best of the samurai spirit alive.

It is a worthwhile endeavor.

Jim

[bujuts]

I personally feel that anyone that attempts to live his or her life by the demanding code of bushido, keeps at least a little bit of the best of the samurai spirit alive.

It is a worthwhile endeavor.

Jim

I agree its a worthwhile endeavor. Its interesting that people usually only associate the path of honor, integrity, etc. with the samurai and/or the bushido code. Maybe its some resonant deep mystery about the orient, I dunno. But, we have our own samurai, our own heritage of honor, service, and sacrifie, right here in this country. Why do people in 2007 aspire the way of the samurai and not the way of the US Marine?

Honor, sacrifice, perserverance, diligence, service, humulity, integrity, etc. are not dead traits, nor are they exclusive to a few cultures despite what martial arts romanticism would have us believe. People talk about the "way" of the samurai, and reach into the past to pick out ideal traits among populations who were just as f'ed up or noble on the individual level as we are today. Why reach into the past to pull out these traits to which the martial human should (hopefully) aspire (and actually, the samurai had less reverence for life than many cultures)? Audey Murphy, Rex Applegate, and Tommy Franks deserve no less attention than Takuan Soho or Miyamoto Musashi, but the just don't offer the same appeal to most.

Just thought I'd bring something up. Didn't want to stir the pot, but the post got me thinking. Great discussion all.

Steven Brown
UKF

[Jim Hanna]

I agree its a worthwhile endeavor. Its interesting that people usually only associate the path of honor, integrity, etc. with the samurai and/or the bushido code. Maybe its some resonant deep mystery about the orient, I dunno. But, we have our own samurai, our own heritage of honor, service, and sacrifie, right here in this country. Why do people in 2007 aspire the way of the samurai and not the way of the US Marine?

Honor, sacrifice, perserverance, diligence, service, humulity, integrity, etc. are not dead traits, nor are they exclusive to a few cultures despite what martial arts romanticism would have us believe. People talk about the "way" of the samurai, and reach into the past to pick out ideal traits among populations who were just as f'ed up or noble on the individual level as we are today. Why reach into the past to pull out these traits to which the martial human should (hopefully) aspire (and actually, the samurai had less reverence for life than many cultures)? Audey Murphy, Rex Applegate, and Tommy Franks deserve no less attention than Takuan Soho or Miyamoto Musashi, but the just don't offer the same appeal to most.

Just thought I'd bring something up. Didn't want to stir the pot, but the post got me thinking. Great discussion all.

Steven Brown
UKF

Exactly right. I did not mean to imply any differently.

My personal quest for truth is satisfied when I discover that what is said in the East is also said in the West. When it is, then I feel that I pretty much have got the right answer.

Jim

[Blindside]

Its the same with applying the samaurai fighting spirit and code to Kenpo. It is alive for some of us and not alive for others.

I personally feel that anyone that attempts to live his or her life by the demanding code of bushido, keeps at least a little bit of the best of the samurai spirit alive.

It is a worthwhile endeavor.

Jim

I understand the ideal of courage, respect, honor, loyalty etc., obviously good ideals for anyone. But are you or anyone you know going to commit seppuku to regain your family honor? Incidentally, the Code of Bushido is a relatively late development and not necessarily intrinsic to he samurai class at all, many were followers of "the way of the bow and the horse," essentially professional soldiers with no implied morality. So which ideal of the samurai have you chosen? Even if you choose the Code of Bushido, if you truly seek to mimic their lives you must live differently than most of us civilians. I'm not sure that their core ideal, that of being ready to die at any time, is necessary, or even healthy for most of us.

Lamont

[Jim Hanna]

[quote=Blindside;64681]I understand the ideal of courage, respect, honor, loyalty etc., obviously good ideals for anyone. But are you or anyone you know going to commit seppuku to regain your family honor? Incidentally, the Code of Bushido is a relatively late development and not necessarily intrinsic to he samurai class at all, many were followers of "the way of the bow and the horse," essentially professional soldiers with no implied morality. So which ideal of the samurai have you chosen? Even if you choose the Code of Bushido, if you truly seek to mimic their lives you must live differently than most of us civilians. I'm not sure that their core ideal, that of being ready to die at any time, is necessary, or even healthy for most of us.

Lamont[/quote

My role models and teachers of the samurai code are Saigo Takamori (the real last samurai) and Yoshida Shoin. They talked the talk and walked the walk. Their lessons have really helped me in my law enforcement career and I have incorporated their teachings into my own kenpo philosophy.

The samurai influence upon the development of Kenpo is predicated upon, as you say, your personal viewpoint of what kenpo is and where it developed. I personally feel that the evasion arts (push - pull), the healing arts, and zen are a part of original kenpo that was discarded, but nonetheless are kenpo arts. Some Tracy style practitioners (Ray Arquilla and Dr Ted Sumner) have rediscovered these arts and incorporated them back into kenpo. I feel the same way about the samurai influence.

I know that many do not. For me, the simple salute that we do has great significance. For others, it is merely a quaint gesture. I guess is depends on how "deeply" you go into the dojo (and I intentionally use that Japanese word).

BTW, I have been on several suicide calls over the years. One will always remain with me. A young woman rented a hotel room. One night she put a small 32 caliber bullet through her brain. She had wrapped towels around the pillows which I took as a consideration for the clean up crew. She had been embarassed and had embarassed her family. She could have committed suicide like some others, i.e. in front of the family, in the family residence, lots of noise, confusion, etc.

It was a very "Japanese" form of suicide, worthy of a salute.

Jim

[Roadrunner]

Wow, this thread has gone wayyyyy .

[kit]

A word on the code of Bushido. The Samurai was a presenc in Japan for about 900 years, he lived with many codes, not all of them were honorable, most kept him alive and were very self serving.
Like the term Samurai, the code of Bushido was a term that many "Samurai" wouldn't be familiar with.
Compare the Samurai with the early American West Gun Fighter. Greased Lightening, yet often drunk with power shooting first, asking questions later, (maybe).
For years the samurai could walk into a tea house and if he saw a man who was taller could lop off his head, no questions asked, he treated women like S--- and basicly did what he wanted in a world where violence made right. The "Code of Bushido" that most Americans speak of was an effort in the late 1800s to stop the violence.


Kit

[sifuroy]

If you follow Al Tracy's History of Kenpo, the Yoshida Clan were a Samurai Clan for over 800 years. One of he strongest clan in Japan. They certainy must have influenced the Code of Bushido. They carried kenpo through many centuries. I only offer this as one possible explanation.

I am Most Respecfully,
Sifuroy

[John M. La Tourrette]

Wow, this thread has gone wayyyyy

I disagree. Here's why. The thread (on topic) was about tracy's and american kenpo. Al tracy has done years of research that puts much of what he now teachs (Kenpo Karate) as coming from a Japanese family, a family that did use the code of bushido. Now some here are attempting to discredit the samurai and the code of bushido, and at the same time make what Mr. Tracy says about historical Kenpo seem not so good. When a system is judged by the "bad apples" in it, it will not appear in a favorable manner. It is a form of negative propaganda normally used purposefully. Now the Tracy brand of Kenpo Karate is a complex brand having much historically in it that is not found in Ed Parker Kenpo. There are many reasons for it, and those reasons have been covered on many other threads. I personally believe that the historical research that Mr. Tracy has done is very important for Kenpo Karate students and I teach his historical materials to my students JUST AS I do teach the movement master keys of Mr. Parker to my students. The both have very good materials and I respect them both much. They are/were both very good in different areas. Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[Roadrunner]

I disagree. Here's why. The thread (on topic) was about tracy's and american kenpo. Al tracy has done years of research that puts much of what he now teachs (Kenpo Karate) as coming from a Japanese family, a family that did use the code of bushido. Now some here are attempting to discredit the samurai and the code of bushido, and at the same time make what Mr. Tracy says about historical Kenpo seem not so good. When a system is judged by the "bad apples" in it, it will not appear in a favorable manner. It is a form of negative propaganda normally used purposefully. Now the Tracy brand of Kenpo Karate is a complex brand having much historically in it that is not found in Ed Parker Kenpo. There are many reasons for it, and those reasons have been covered on many other threads. I personally believe that the historical research that Mr. Tracy has done is very important for Kenpo Karate students and I teach his historical materials to my students JUST AS I do teach the movement master keys of Mr. Parker to my students. The both have very good materials and I respect them both much. They are/were both very good in different areas. Dr. John M. La Tourrette

According to the original post, he wants to know the difference between the "systems", not history of the systems. That's my .02 worth. Maybe I misinterpret what the original poster wants though.

[Latinvipers]

i saw a special on samurai, there was a teacher forgot his name, but he was really a decendant of samurai family, and was talking how a samurai is trained to be ready to die not to fear it, so when he fights it's not on his mind what to do not to get killed. i think it was on the history channel.

[John M. La Tourrette]

According to the original post, he wants to know the difference between the "systems", not history of the systems. That's my .02 worth. Maybe I misinterpret what the original poster wants though.

Since answering this post here would be a violation of kenpotalk's rules of a thread I've started a new thread with the above topic.

Sincerely,
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[RamsHead]

A quick note on the Samurai thang. Kenpo is a war art and the word kenpo wak at one point a general term for such the other side are the "Do" arts that focus on exacting movements as a route to enlightenment.
So Kenpo and "Jitsu" arts are war arts, Samurai arts.