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Thread: Issues with control

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    Default Issues with control

    Has anyone else run into a problem with being an UKE for someone who seems to have no regard for control?

    How do you approach the problem?

    I am in a new school so I am starting over at rank 1 even though I have a pretty good foundation.. and I have no problem with this at all.. I actually enjoy starting at the beginning again because it just reinforces my basics as far as I am concerned... but I don't want to sound like the know it all or a whiner...

    I know there is some contact involved, I know there will be accidents ...

    but.... example... I was UKE for thrusting prongs.. first time I had seen it... they said attack is front bear hug... no problem... since it is the first time I stepped in at about 1/4 speed and WHAM!!!! 2 knuckled thrusting fists into my lower abs....

    Thoughts?

    Is this common to Kenpo?

    I ask because my last 3 schools all different forms were very serious about control.

    Don't break your toys ... please

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Century used to have great products that said, "Control means never having to say you're sorry." I have always felt that way. Contact should only be appropriate for the level you are working at. If a personin a school is too exuberant with their contact let them know. In my school you start off with very soft shots until we find your comforty level for contact and build from their.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    I would politely ask the classmate to tone it down a little. There is going to be contact in any legitimate kenpo school, but getting bruised is one thing and getting broken ribs is another. Self-control should be kept in mind along with the safety and welfare of the students.

    Remember this though, the uke gets their turn too. =)
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Yes, the UKE does get his turn..

    and yes.. it is tempting.... but no, I would never lash out like that.

    It's not me, it's not the way,

    I was also mainly asking becasue I know when I was stydying a little Mui Thai the impact was part of the ciriculum. The whole body hardening thing... I didn't study it long for that reason.

    I was hoping that I didn't get myself into annother style with that mentality.

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Seriously, the idea behind self defense (Kenpo is a self defense art) is to keep from getting hurt.

    If you feel your partner is striking too hard simply ask them politely to tone it down. Anything beyond that should be brought to the attention of the instructor.
    "It is sobering to reflect that one of the best ways to get yourself a reputation as a dangerous citizen these days is to go about repeating the very phrases which our founding fathers used in the struggle for independence." – Charles A. Beard

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    *nods*

    Agreed, was really just the new guy syndrom, as much as I do enjoy the form and my new dojo... I am still feeling it out.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Mr Bunny- Any updates on the control issue?

    I just caught this one and it sent up a little red flag for me. Even though you are experienced you are a beginner belt on this school correct? Whether the other individual is a higher rank or a beginner, control should be one of the first things taught when interacting with an "uke"!

    I would not hesitate to mention it to the person in a casual manner, and if it persists or worse yet, if other students have this problem then your path at this school could be more painful than needed... arggh

    Where I train it is all about your relationship with the uke, some of us have been training together for a long time so anything less than a hard shot is unacceptable- but when working with a new student (previously experienced or not) the utmost consideration should be shown in regards to control.

    Hope it all works out, keep us posted!

    james
    The above is just my opinion.

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Is the instructor monitoring what you're doing? You may be starting over in a new school but you have plenty of experience when it comes to control. Other than mentioning it to the other guy, maybe a general question to the instructor about what type of contact do they want could clue him in that he needs to pay a bit more attention.

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Kenpo is the first ma that I've gotten involved with. I'm still working on my control issues but I've been smacked around a couple of times. Luckily for me, I can raise one eyebrow at the offender and they usually get the idea of what they did wrong. If not, I take it straight to the instructor. He takes care of the rest...

    As for us newbies learning control, here's my struggle. I want to make sure I execute the move correctly; I don't want to hurt my Uke, but I also don't want to practice pulling it and having it not be effective in a real life situation b/c I ALMOST hit/blocked someone. It's that gray area that I'm trying to find and sometimes I miss it completely. Just ask Celtic, I'm sure his jaw remembers my fist...(sorry).

    just my thoughts...
    "Second chances they don't never matter, people never change
    Once a whore you're nothing more i'm sorry that'll never change
    And about forgiveness, we're both supposed to have exchanged
    I'm sorry honey, but i'm passing up, now look this way...*" --Paramore "Misery Business"


    (*this is where a punch would be landed)

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    *nods*

    Agreed, was really just the new guy syndrom, as much as I do enjoy the form and my new dojo... I am still feeling it out.

    Thanks
    Mr. Bunny,

    Who do you train with in Baltimore? PM me if you don't want to post public.

    Later.
    HKF

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Quote Originally Posted by hongkongfooey
    Mr. Bunny,

    Who do you train with in Baltimore? PM me if you don't want to post public.

    Later.
    HKF
    Yes who do you train with in Baltimore?
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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Sorry I lost track of this thread and was on others. heheh

    As always some people have better control than others.. this is to be expected, and yes.. depending on who I am working with I will attack more aggresvly with some and not so with others untill we feel one annother out.

    In my class we have at least one guy who has magnificent control... it really is impresive how close he gets without any contact or just the lightest tap. I can often match him with that though I fully admit that aobut 1 out or 10 time I make more contact than I mean to. then there are those of all belt levels who's control.. I would describe as.. iffy. and unfortunatly one who I really dislike working with even though he is a really nice guy.. he gets... overly excited...

    I am learning how to UKE a little better for this style of training and it invovles more communication and letting myself relax...

    You will have to forgive me if I choose to not mention where I am. I would like to keep any sense of politics out of the discussion that could even start to flare up.
    I feel that way about any debate as it could bite me in the butt in the future. Besides when I debate an issue or concept I prefer it be a general discussion and not something as specific as this thread or specific to my school.

    fortunatly I have graviated to one person who I usualy work with if possible.. we have found how hard we can both attack and we are comfortable saying "tone it down" to one annother.

    Unfortunatly because our body type are very differant.. we are sometimes paired up with different people.

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    control is deff an issue.. i have pretty good control... one thing you have to realize is the rank (length of time training) of the indvidual you are working with... i really try not to hit the lower ranks at all or verry little, because you dont want to discurage them from comming back.. with that higher ranks it goes back and forth, you can hit each other a little harder (taking into account where your hitting, like you dont want to punch someone in the nose no matter what their rank is, but the body shots you deff. can hit alittle harder.) if you have the kenpo encyclopedia, look up meaning full dialog... in short this helps your uke react properly to the strike you are delivering.. as we all know, in kenpo, each strike will leed you to your next strike.. so if you uke starts to go backwards with a strike to the groin, this action is not going to help you exicute your tecq.

    some one said that they would be afraid of pulling punches in the dojo because they might do it in the street.. i find this to be a myth.. it is much much harder to pull a punch than to just let one fly past (or through) your target... just practice slowly when learning.. get the fundamentals down and the speed and power will follow shortly.. repatiton, repatiton, repatiton.

    there is a good drill with the focus mits to do... one person holdes them the other punches... determin weather you will be doing a three count, four count or what ever.. working on three count (three punches being thrown at the mitts) the person holding the mitts will say for example "yes, no, no" or "no, yes, no" or "yes, yes, no" . on the "yes" you hit the mitt... on the "no's" you pull the punch and dont hit the mitt.. this has really helped me with my control..

    i do have to say that in tests or in an elevated excitement situation, i tend to hit a little harder, but not to say that i loose control..

    hope this helps.
    your kenpo brother
    shane

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Quote Originally Posted by MrBunny
    Sorry I lost track of this thread and was on others. heheh

    As always some people have better control than others.. this is to be expected, and yes.. depending on who I am working with I will attack more aggresvly with some and not so with others untill we feel one annother out.

    In my class we have at least one guy who has magnificent control... it really is impresive how close he gets without any contact or just the lightest tap. I can often match him with that though I fully admit that aobut 1 out or 10 time I make more contact than I mean to. then there are those of all belt levels who's control.. I would describe as.. iffy. and unfortunatly one who I really dislike working with even though he is a really nice guy.. he gets... overly excited...

    I am learning how to UKE a little better for this style of training and it invovles more communication and letting myself relax...

    You will have to forgive me if I choose to not mention where I am. I would like to keep any sense of politics out of the discussion that could even start to flare up.
    I feel that way about any debate as it could bite me in the butt in the future. Besides when I debate an issue or concept I prefer it be a general discussion and not something as specific as this thread or specific to my school.

    fortunatly I have graviated to one person who I usualy work with if possible.. we have found how hard we can both attack and we are comfortable saying "tone it down" to one annother.

    Unfortunatly because our body type are very differant.. we are sometimes paired up with different people.



    I can understand about the politics thing. I study a 16 technique system, and have read lots smack on other forums from some that study the 24 technique system. In regard to the school thing, I was just curious who you train with, no malice was intended. Many of the instructors in the Baltimore area share a common lineage, so it would be pointless for students of those teachers to fight over who's school is better.

    HKF
    Last edited by hongkongfooey; 01-29-2006 at 12:19 AM.

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    One of the things I always liked about kenpo that other styles make fun of us for is the use of slap checks.

    Not only can they help generate power, but (more importantly to me), they help with control. If you train yourself to slap just slightly before the point of impact, then you know where to stop.

    It's like the slap keeps you from actually hitting someone.

    When I use the slap checks, I can move people's hair or create a little breeze for them to let them know I was there.

    Without the checks, it's harder.

    I like the drill of the 3 or 4 count. Add some of those in the drills thread.

    --Amy

    P.S. I hear those Baltimore guys are pretty tough in general, but that may be a myth. I know a few.....
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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Ohh I know no one intended malice with the question.. I don't even think I was afraid of the "why are you studying there.." questions.. rather... I don't want someone from my school seeing a post and think.. "Why is he complaining about this or that?" When thread was honestly more of a general question of what one could expect in kenpo.. of course ... now I am feeling all defensive about the thread and I know I should not.

    grrrr...

    Baltimore guys being tough... maybe it's all the pollutants in the water... like Achilles being dipped in the river Styx... we have so many toxins coursing through our bodies we are becoming invulnerable.

    I too like the focus pad drill.. hummm

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    I don't think people should be worrying about whether you're complaining about someone not having control. They should be thinking, "I hope he doesn't mean me." Then check to be sure they are using good control.

    I don't think you sounded like a whiner.

    We have one person in our school who likes to hit people really hard, then complains bitterly if someone hits back with equal force. I hate that.

    --Amy
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    Default Re: Issues with control

    Yea you should be able to take what you give...


    I leared that a long time ago with my mouth... So I have leared that my comments are about myself half the time anyway.. just so no one gets left out.

    Does not sound like I am whining... well I'll just have to do something bout that wont I?

    Ultimatly I guess what it comes down to is hit as comforably as you can be with the people you know and learn how other people train.. it all comes down to awairness.

    and just remember that you don't want to break your toys.. because here.. your toys can hit back.

    After much thought and consideration... I study at American Kenpo in Dundalk.. Brian Haise (sp?) so sad.. I have no idea how to spell their last name... he has always just been Mr. Brian.

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    MOST DEFINITELY!!!!!
    I've worked with partners quite a bit who hit much much too hard, much much too frequently. I've talked to them about this...but it didn't really seem to work sometimes. Other times it did. Usually, when people really get into "Force on Force" Gorrilla Kenpo...they don't really understand technique and rely on pulling it off with brawn instead of finese. (sp?) They don't improve until they learn to get away from the "Blast'm away" type motion and learn....and learn....and learn....
    otherwise...they stay stuck.
    God forbid they should ever grow old, injured or ill and need something besides muscular force to make something work.

    Often I would seek these people out and be sure to be their training partner so that:
    A: Others wouldn't be offended and/or injured by them and leave the school or have to quit.
    B: I could learn to redirect tremendous muscular force and work on my "non-force on force" Kenpo skills. (very valuable I think)

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    Default Re: Issues with control

    to me control means you can hit the Uke (a body shot), with enough speed and force they get the idea and react as someone would being hit, and any pain they feel is initial.. after about a minute or two its forgotten.

    and i fully agree with Century's little quote.

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