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Thread: Missing Technique???

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    MHeeler's Avatar
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    Question Missing Technique???

    In the Technique of the Month forum, the November thread is about Delayed Sword. In that thread, several people mentioned an alteration of DS which deals with a punch attack rather than a grab attack. I think some folks brought up some good points. Here are a couple comments:

    In Parker's "motion based" Kenpo, THE head teacher of your group should set the Ideal techniques for the Parker Curriculum that is taught. Under that mandate and recognizing "Delayed Sword" dictated by Mr. Parker's "Web of Knowledge" is supposed to teach a fundamental response to a "dead hand/ grab" assault, specifically a right hand grab to the left lapel. So my questions are, "Is the technique you teach for an "attempted grab?" And if so, "What other technique in your syllabus proposes, and answers the question of a right hand grab from the front? And finally, "If this the first technique in your curriculum, "Why would you attempt to teach a complete beginner a technique that requires a quick reaction to a potentially significant attack.
    and,

    Changing Delayed Sword to a punching attack violates the overall theme of the first course, and omits the necessity of teaching a right handed grab from the front for an overwhelming "right-handed" population. Thus this particular grab is the most likely to occur in intimdation type seizures. To omit it for arbitrtary reasons ignors the needs of the students. There's nothing wrong with change, as long as there's a good reason.
    So, because our new Yellow Belt material makes this alteration, I thought it might be a good idea to discuss how this impacts our curriculum. While I personally prefer the technique Flashing Swords to the prior one, I admit that there does appear to be a missing technique. I realize that FS could easily work for a grab scenario, but this usage would seem to violate centerline principles in the same way that Delayed Sword did. Also, I'll state here that I personally don't agree that a right-hand single lapel grab is a likely attack, especially given the preponderance of right-handedness. As a "rightie," it seems to me that it would be more comfortable to grab with my left and save my right for a follow-up attack. Still, I suppose I could somehow manage to seriously annoy a tough southpaw. It might be prudent for me to know what to do in that situation. While I think I could easily modify several other AKKI techniques to fit this scenario, we don't appear to have an explicit solution.

    Am I right or wrong in my interpretation of this issue? Does anyone have any answers? Or other questions?

    I look forward to some enlightenment,
    MH
    Man has only those rights he can defend.

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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Here is an idea,
    Who says that a push can't turn into a punch and vice versa? They are both projectiles coming at you and the easy answer is teaching the student to pick up the harder of the two so they can easily pick up the other without changing anything. Flashing Swords and Swords of Fury do just that - they pick up straight right, right roundhouse, right push or grab. Swords of Fury does the same thing only on the left and they both take into consideration without alteration, the possiblity of a second punch. All this without changing anything. Hope that helps .
    Alan

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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Another observation,

    Not changing a technique due to the worry of violating a theme seems kinda miniscule compared to the violation that could take place on your body by someone else if you are locked into a theme rather than teaching someone ability, flexibility, and reliability.
    Alan

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    Thumbs down Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    Not changing a technique due to the worry of violating a theme seems kinda miniscule compared to the violation that could take place on your body by someone else if you are locked into a theme rather than teaching someone ability, flexibility, and reliability.
    Alan
    I don't agree at all Alan. Students should be learning the attack as it was designed in the ideal phase. Once they have a mastery of the ideal phase technique, there are MANY options of other ideal phase techniques to flow into should something go wrong.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Ok, ideal phase. Would you rather hang on to the guy or get his hand way, at the same time checking his width and possibly height. Unless I am doing something like conquering shield, snapping twigs, or lone kimono, I do not want to hang on to him if I do not have to.
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by parkerkarate
    Ok, ideal phase. Would you rather hang on to the guy or get his hand way, at the same time checking his width and possibly height. Unless I am doing something like conquering shield, snapping twigs, or lone kimono, I do not want to hang on to him if I do not have to.
    I am confused. Who said anything about "hanging on to someone"? Which technique are we discussing?


    Jamie Seabrook

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    The difference between a grab, slow push, an attempted grab, or even an slow punch are miniscule to the defender. You are not going to tell the diffrerence until after initial contact; so, this is a preference thing. Mr Parker never pitched a fit when he saw people thinking about the likelyhood a left hander will grab with his right. Those that said, "Hey there are only one out of nine people that are left handed. Maybe we should train for a more likely attack". Would you rather be right or happy.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger
    The difference between a grab, slow push, an attempted grab, or even an slow punch are miniscule to the defender. You are not going to tell the diffrerence until after initial contact; so, this is a preference thing. Mr Parker never pitched a fit when he saw people thinking about the likelyhood a left hander will grab with his right. Those that said, "Hey there are only one out of nine people that are left handed. Maybe we should train for a more likely attack". Would you rather be right or happy.
    Sean
    I know what you are trying to say but please give me some examples of specific techniques to back it up rather than just making general comments.

    For example, both Delayed Sword and Falling Falcon appear to be for the same attack. But they are NOT. What determines which technique you would use?


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



    Jma

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I know what you are trying to say but please give me some examples of specific techniques to back it up rather than just making general comments.

    For example, both Delayed Sword and Falling Falcon appear to be for the same attack. But they are NOT. What determines which technique you would use?


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com



    Jma
    All techs are situation specific; so any time you shuffle up for a kick or make some other adjustment you are no longer in that situation; you are forcing a tech. The UFC is really making efforts to eliminate adjusting for one situation when you are in another. This make demos suck if you opponent reacts wrong or isn't commited. Everyone loves "five swords" but most don't know the specific situation in which it happens; so, there is a lot of "five swords" forcing going on out there. Its all there in the eight considerations of combat; the tech doesn't start until after maneuver, when you manuever within a basic tech, you are starting over.
    Sean

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    So why would one use Delayed Sword over Falling Falcon?


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    I would use it because I don't know "falling Falcon" but thats just me

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I am confused. Who said anything about "hanging on to someone"? Which technique are we discussing?


    Jamie Seabrook
    I thought we were talking about Delayed Sword
    "To hear is to doubt. To see is to be deceived. But to feel is to believe." -- SGM Ed Parker

    "Sic vis pacem parabellum - If you want peace, prepare for war." -- "The Punisher"


    "Praying Mantis, very good. . . For catching bugs." --Jackie Chan

    "A horse stance is great for taking a dump" --Jet Li

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    I don't agree at all Alan. Students should be learning the attack as it was designed in the ideal phase.
    The 'IDEAL' phase? is that where the attacker steps in with a perfectly dimensioned Neutral Bow Stance and delivers a 'text book' attack?

    Sorry, but in the real world, it's not going to happen.

    Quote Originally Posted by Seabrook
    Once they have a mastery of the ideal phase technique, there are MANY options of other ideal phase techniques to flow into should something go wrong. Jamie Seabrook
    Isn't that grafting, rather than 'Ideal Phase'?

    I may be misunderstanding what I'm reading here.

    Les
    I'm only here to learn

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    You haven't misunderstood. While the techs are the "bread and Butter" of the art, some regard them as more than a training tool. The techs, in fact, become the art itself. When this happens there is no arguing ideal vs variation. You either do it the way it was written or you are misunderstanding the whole art of Kenpo.
    Sean

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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    I don't agree at all Alan. Students should be learning the attack as it was designed in the ideal phase. Once they have a mastery of the ideal phase technique, there are MANY options of other ideal phase techniques to flow into should something go wrong.
    I understand that you don't Jamie. My question to you as you state, why should one learn it as it's designed in the ideal phase?

    Well from all the years of teaching white belts, how many are going to understand it at their level? They don't even understand their own bodies well enough to really command ability with their stance, coordination let alone trying to adjust to something that is not taught as a base and then get them to move with it based on reading the strike, angle velocity, etc.
    I have been punched at, pushed at and grabbed at many times times and it all looks the same - something coming at you. The key is reading the angle and not being attack specific. Does it matter if it's a palm heel to your face or a punch - it will still connect if you don't pick it up. How do you know if the palm heel is a push or attempt to grab? he can easily turn the palm heel to a punch but on the basic level, they are all the same except the angle of entry.
    So that is the logic we went with. Cover the bases in the base technique. We don't have them kick but they could easily if they chose. The two, Flashing Swords and Swords of Fury cover the punch, straight or round, push or attemped grab or grab if they get caught flatfooted. It also covers the very real possibility if they get attacked with a combination. It's all built in without the equation formula.
    The other thing you mention Jamie is "once they have a mastery of the ideal phase..." We don't want to wait for the time it takes for the beginner to have mastery. When would that be? In some peoples minds, that is a state in which very few will get to. We want our students at white belt to be proficient. Proficient enough to pull off taking care of themselves without waiting to master the base ( to me, that is too abstract and subjective). We want the beginner to have the tools in the first technique, at it's base to pick up a push, grab, punch and even two punches without altering the base. This is what they are going to hard wire in their muscle memory and it will take some time before they can be flexible enought to make the equation formula and rearrangement concept work for them with their base techniques.
    This is how we think. Not asking you to agree but possibly look at it from another point of view.
    Alan

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Thanks for all the replies, everyone. Let me try to address the ones that interest me...

    Who says that a push can't turn into a punch and vice versa? They are both projectiles coming at you...
    I'm quoting Alan J. here, but I believe at least one other person made this point. It's an excellent point, I think. If we spend a mere fraction of our time on environmental awareness and distance control, we could plausibly find ourselves in the enviable position of being able to pick up the attack as it approaches. Otherwise, we're forcing ourselves to play catch-up from the very start. But, I think that's the crux of my original question. Suppose, for argument's sake, that we, as the defender, miss the approach of the attack. Perhaps we were in the midst of conversation, ogling some tasty dish (literally and/or figuratively ), or merely lost in our own heads. In any case, our opponent completes the attack (a right lapel grab). This is the scenario I intended as the starting point for my question.

    Obviously, even without an explicit solution (technique) for this completed grab, we have a multitude of options. For example, we could continue on with Flashing Swords, either in its entirety or by omitting the inward block from the beginning. Several other techniques also could be applied: Eye of the Storm, Raking Mace, Triggered Devastation, and Five Swords come to mind. And that's just from the first two belt levels!!!!

    So, is that the situation with our curriculum? Because we have all these options available to us, is there no need to have an explicit solution for this particular attack? For that matter, is there no need for specific techniques for any given attack? Should we concentrate on more general attack "types?" I think a valid argument could be made for that as well.

    One last thing...

    We don't want to wait for the time it takes for the beginner to have mastery. When would that be?
    I wholeheartedly agree with this sentiment. I've often argued this myself. I think we frequently tend to put nebulous notions of "system" and "style" before efficacy. Excellent post, Alan J..

    Thanks again for all the replies,
    MH
    Man has only those rights he can defend.

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    Alan J. is offline
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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    We do address the specifics of all the attacks in the AKKI but what we went with in the beginning is what could be most valuable to the white belt after the first class walking out the door. If we set their mindset to wait for the grab and then engage, we have set them up to fail in the manner of waiting to get attacked. You can just see the excited student running home to show their family/friends what they just learned - "ok grab my shirt with your right hand..." See what I mean? How you practice is how you will do it.
    This is reality and we have got the student to allow that to happen before doing anything. Mr. Mills likes actually having the white belts put both hands up in a defensive, hey I don't want to fight, kind of position then they are already in a position to engage. In fact, they are engaged. This is not to say this is done all the time but we are introducing this concept of physiological engagement in the first belt level and first technique. We teach the student to do the technique from standing, neutral bow shuffling forward or back.
    The deal is we teach the grab but not just in the same order as IKKA curriculum. Mr. Parker used the web of knowledge to put things in an organized fashion and it worked for what he was doing at the time. We use all the attacks but use the order of what does the student need first and what is more common is our concern and this is based on practical experience.
    We have grabs in Yellow belt and also in Orange, Purple, Blue, etc. Just not following the order that many are used to.
    Your right about the various solutions but FS and SF teach the student to pick it all up without changing anything. Having a grab technique deal with a punch is going to require much more alterations especially at a white belt level and a white belt doing it than teaching them to deal with a puch and move down to an attempt or a complete grab form there. Your right, it can happen getting grabbed. We are not saying that it won't but to have an explosive technique that is flexible defensively is our priority.

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger
    You haven't misunderstood. While the techs are the "bread and Butter" of the art, some regard them as more than a training tool. The techs, in fact, become the art itself. When this happens there is no arguing ideal vs variation. You either do it the way it was written or you are misunderstanding the whole art of Kenpo.
    Sean
    That's not what I said at all Sean.

    The bottom line is that you can "what-if" until the cow jumps over the moon. Why not just learn the ideal phase techniques right in the first place rather than always trying to change the nature of the attack (as designed by Ed Parker) because you didn't understand the catalyst in the first place?


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    The other thing you mention Jamie is "once they have a mastery of the ideal phase..." We don't want to wait for the time it takes for the beginner to have mastery. Alan
    Trust me Alan, I am not saying that beginners can't learn to defend themselves. I have adults as low as yellow belt fighting continuous and those who are interested, fighting full-contact, so we don't "wait" either.

    As for techniques, like anything, it takes time to get better and better. I still work on improving my beginner techniques, and I hope you do to.


    Jamie Seabrook
    www.seabrook.gotkenpo.com

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    MHeeler's Avatar
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    Default Re: Missing Technique???

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    We do address the specifics of all the attacks in the AKKI but what we went with in the beginning is what could be most valuable to the white belt after the first class walking out the door. If we set their mindset to wait for the grab and then engage, we have set them up to fail in the manner of waiting to get attacked. You can just see the excited student running home to show their family/friends what they just learned - "ok grab my shirt with your right hand..." See what I mean? How you practice is how you will do it.
    Gotcha. I hadn't quite thought of the psychological impact of how we teach techniques. I think that our curriculum now emphasizes those issues I mentioned earlier, i.e. environmental awareness and control of distance. For me, and lots of others I'm sure, this is one of the main reasons that the AKKI is such an improvement on my prior training.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    This is reality and we have got the student to allow that to happen before doing anything. Mr. Mills likes actually having the white belts put both hands up in a defensive, hey I don't want to fight, kind of position then they are already in a position to engage. In fact, they are engaged. This is not to say this is done all the time but we are introducing this concept of physiological engagement in the first belt level and first technique. We teach the student to do the technique from standing, neutral bow shuffling forward or back.
    I really like this methodology. Fastmover showed me the value of this a while back. Even as a beginner, making these subtle changes greatly enhances our reaction time and ability to remain flexible.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    Your right about the various solutions but FS and SF teach the student to pick it all up without changing anything. Having a grab technique deal with a punch is going to require much more alterations especially at a white belt level and a white belt doing it than teaching them to deal with a puch and move down to an attempt or a complete grab form there. Your right, it can happen getting grabbed. We are not saying that it won't but to have an explosive technique that is flexible defensively is our priority.
    Well said. I think that last sentence is probably the best answer to my question. Our new curriculum does seem to have flexibility built into it, with little alteration necessary. Also, I think it's important that we address the most likely attacks early on in the curriculum, which is what I think is happening within the AKKI. Thanks for the patient explanations, Alan J.

    MH
    Man has only those rights he can defend.

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