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Thread: Flashing Swords

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    MJS
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    Default Flashing Swords

    On the advice of Bro John, I'm posting this question here. In another thread, there is an ongoing discussion on the EPAK technique Delayed Sword. There is discussion on the nature of the attack, either a grab or punch as well as if the pin is necessary.

    My question is: Flashing Swords is the technique that replaced DS in the AKKI? If so, how does this tech. differ from DS? What is the attack? Is there a pin if the attack is a lapel grab?

    Thanks,

    Mike

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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS
    On the advice of Bro John, I'm posting this question here. In another thread, there is an ongoing discussion on the EPAK technique Delayed Sword. There is discussion on the nature of the attack, either a grab or punch as well as if the pin is necessary.

    My question is: Flashing Swords is the technique that replaced DS in the AKKI? If so, how does this tech. differ from DS? What is the attack? Is there a pin if the attack is a lapel grab?

    Thanks,

    Mike
    I'll try to help you out here Mike. First off I just want to invite any of the seniors to correct anything I say. I'm just going from what I think is correct but that doesn't mean it is

    I always tell my students when someone grabs you, you grab them. That means the attacker has made contact with you and secured you in some fashion. I can not think of a single grab technique where we do not apply a pinning check or a grab to the grabbing hand/arm. So if the attacker grabs you grab them.

    For Flashing Swords I have always done this as a punch attack. I encourage my students to examine it for a push as well though. Same technique but the speed of the attack is usually different.

    How is Flashing Swords different than Delayed Sword...you could write a couple pages on this topic. I'll just pick what I think is an obvious difference. In DS (Delayed Sword) you step back to a RNB (pin or no pin depends on the situation), R-Inward Block, RF cats back, R-Front Snap to the groin, plant to a RNB, R-Outward chop. I bolded the section I have an issue with. If they are grabbing they are either pushing or pulling or attempting to manipulate in some fashion. If they are punching you should be mindful of the next move (what if it is a double leg?). In either situation narrowing your base and placing most weight on the back leg is probably not a good idea. Now I know the arguements, the kick will cancel forward momentum, but there you are asking a beginner to be able to solidify, block, cat, then kick before attacker can execute their pre-planned next move (left punch, double leg shot, etc...) Next argument, well I can just graft into another move and take care of all the what-if situations. So you as an instructor are asking a white belt to become proficient in grafting in the very first technique you are teaching?

    I know that is a long post but i just wanted to share my 2 cents. Again like I said before please feel free to correct me Mr. Jacob and Mr. Connolly if I have misspoken. Others please don't ask how Flashing Swords compensates for these things or even how to do the technique. If you want to learn that go talk to you area AKKI guy or gal.

    Hope that helped Mike,
    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

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    MJS
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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    Quote Originally Posted by cloak13
    I'll try to help you out here Mike. First off I just want to invite any of the seniors to correct anything I say. I'm just going from what I think is correct but that doesn't mean it is

    I always tell my students when someone grabs you, you grab them. That means the attacker has made contact with you and secured you in some fashion. I can not think of a single grab technique where we do not apply a pinning check or a grab to the grabbing hand/arm. So if the attacker grabs you grab them.

    For Flashing Swords I have always done this as a punch attack. I encourage my students to examine it for a push as well though. Same technique but the speed of the attack is usually different.

    How is Flashing Swords different than Delayed Sword...you could write a couple pages on this topic. I'll just pick what I think is an obvious difference. In DS (Delayed Sword) you step back to a RNB (pin or no pin depends on the situation), R-Inward Block, RF cats back, R-Front Snap to the groin, plant to a RNB, R-Outward chop. I bolded the section I have an issue with. If they are grabbing they are either pushing or pulling or attempting to manipulate in some fashion. If they are punching you should be mindful of the next move (what if it is a double leg?). In either situation narrowing your base and placing most weight on the back leg is probably not a good idea. Now I know the arguements, the kick will cancel forward momentum, but there you are asking a beginner to be able to solidify, block, cat, then kick before attacker can execute their pre-planned next move (left punch, double leg shot, etc...) Next argument, well I can just graft into another move and take care of all the what-if situations. So you as an instructor are asking a white belt to become proficient in grafting in the very first technique you are teaching?

    I know that is a long post but i just wanted to share my 2 cents. Again like I said before please feel free to correct me Mr. Jacob and Mr. Connolly if I have misspoken. Others please don't ask how Flashing Swords compensates for these things or even how to do the technique. If you want to learn that go talk to you area AKKI guy or gal.

    Hope that helped Mike,
    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD
    Tim,

    Thank you for the reply. I think that you brought up some excellent points when comparing the 2 techs. I take it that FS, when being done against a grab, does not include the cat stance as in DS?

    I realize that you said that you didn't want to go into great detail on this tech. but for the record, my intention is just to understand your version compared to EPAK, a little better. I did not post this question to begin a bashing session on the AKKI like we've seen other people do.

    Thanks again for you reply and I'm looking forward to any other feedback from any of the AKKI Seniors that may be on here.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    Quote Originally Posted by MJS
    Tim,

    Thank you for the reply. I think that you brought up some excellent points when comparing the 2 techs. I take it that FS, when being done against a grab, does not include the cat stance as in DS?

    I realize that you said that you didn't want to go into great detail on this tech. but for the record, my intention is just to understand your version compared to EPAK, a little better. I did not post this question to begin a bashing session on the AKKI like we've seen other people do.

    Thanks again for you reply and I'm looking forward to any other feedback from any of the AKKI Seniors that may be on here.

    Mike
    Wouldn't always grabbing the grab tie up your weapon as well?

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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger
    Wouldn't always grabbing the grab tie up your weapon as well?
    Yes it does, but at this point if they have a hold of you, you can capitalize on utilizing yourself as a bracing angle, and helps you keep tabs on what that hand is doing. Also, I want to retract something I said in my earlier post. That you almost always grab when someone grabs you. I want to pull that back because I was able to think of a couple techniques where you do not grab the grab. I apologize for misspeaking, I guess my brain wasn't awake yet

    Mike, you are correct that there is not a cat stance in Flashing Swords. It utilizes neutral and forward bows. I do want to throw out there though that I think Delayed Sword is a nifty technique and sometimes it does just fly out of me in a technique line I just feel that Flashing Swords is a better learning tool for beginners.

    I'll try to help with any questions I can. I appreciate your questions Mike and will help out as much as I feel like I can. Believe me, I've seen plenty of AKKI bashing and can see that you're not heading that way with the conversation. Kenpochanger I saw your comments on the Delayed Sword thread and thought they were polite and well worded so I'll try to help you out as much as I can as well. I'm all for nice conversation but when people start getting that "my way is the only way" BS going it drives me nuts. I hate to be picky about who I talk to but that seems to be the way forums have to be now a days.

    Feel free to ask more questions and I'll see what I can do

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

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    MJS
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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger
    Wouldn't always grabbing the grab tie up your weapon as well?
    I'd have to say it would depend on what your goal is.

    Mike

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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    Quote Originally Posted by cloak13
    Mike, you are correct that there is not a cat stance in Flashing Swords. It utilizes neutral and forward bows. I do want to throw out there though that I think Delayed Sword is a nifty technique and sometimes it does just fly out of me in a technique line I just feel that Flashing Swords is a better learning tool for beginners.
    Mr. Mills has IMO made some good changes. I'm sure that he took into consideration both techs. and what would be best suited for people.

    I'll try to help with any questions I can. I appreciate your questions Mike and will help out as much as I feel like I can. Believe me, I've seen plenty of AKKI bashing and can see that you're not heading that way with the conversation. Kenpochanger I saw your comments on the Delayed Sword thread and thought they were polite and well worded so I'll try to help you out as much as I can as well. I'm all for nice conversation but when people start getting that "my way is the only way" BS going it drives me nuts. I hate to be picky about who I talk to but that seems to be the way forums have to be now a days.

    Feel free to ask more questions and I'll see what I can do
    Thank you! I'm more for learning as much as I can, rather than wasting all of that time by bashing Mr. Mills or anyone else in the Kenpo world that does things differently. Heaven forbid we have some change! LOL! If he (Mr. Mills) made changes that he felt were either needed or would benefit people more, then my hat is off to him.

    Thanks again Tim, and if I have more questions..and I'm sure I will..I'll be sure to ask.

    Mike

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD[/quote]

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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    The idea behind Flashing Sword and Swords of Fury as tey complement each other, is that they are designed for a white belt in mind. Of all the white belts i have ever taught over the years, few could kick well as they are just learning then to have them kick in the heat of it is very difficult to do. All this done while in a cat stance. Very unstable when a person is grabbing, already grabbed or punching at you with all that weight and momentum to account for.
    To start adjusting the technique(Delayed Sword) by taking out the kick or the cat stance or what have you to argue that it can work with adjustments defeats the initial purpose of teaching that motion in that technique to a white belt. Teach it with the adjustments then and make that the standard if that is easier for most. Now you progressed the technique. So we did. Mr. Mills took the basic idea that there is a very good chance that two punches were possible so FS and SF have built in without adjustment, coverage for two punches, combination techniques at yellow belt.
    The attack is a right punch because something coming at you is...something coming at you. Not much time to factor if it's a punch or grab. If they already grab you then you must deal with that but not any differently that what the base techniques of FS and SF teach.
    There is no kick but it's easy to put one in however the essence of the technique is to have a solid foundation standing, blocking/checking, and hitting.
    Hope that helps. There is much more though.
    Alan

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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoChanger
    Wouldn't always grabbing the grab tie up your weapon as well?
    Something to bear in mind is that the countergrab should have a psychological effect as well as a physical one.

    The person grabbed you to control you. By countergrabbing you are not only taking back control but exerting a degree of control on them. They may have lost the ability to let go now. They'll have to re-assess their plan.

    On the physical side, they have lost the use of the grabbing hand until they can free it from YOUR grab or pin. You, on the other hand can release the grab at any time you choose.

    Les
    I'm only here to learn

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    Default Re: Flashing Swords

    Quote Originally Posted by Alan J.
    The idea behind Flashing Sword and Swords of Fury as tey complement each other, is that they are designed for a white belt in mind. Of all the white belts i have ever taught over the years, few could kick well as they are just learning then to have them kick in the heat of it is very difficult to do. All this done while in a cat stance. Very unstable when a person is grabbing, already grabbed or punching at you with all that weight and momentum to account for.
    To start adjusting the technique(Delayed Sword) by taking out the kick or the cat stance or what have you to argue that it can work with adjustments defeats the initial purpose of teaching that motion in that technique to a white belt. Teach it with the adjustments then and make that the standard if that is easier for most. Now you progressed the technique. So we did. Mr. Mills took the basic idea that there is a very good chance that two punches were possible so FS and SF have built in without adjustment, coverage for two punches, combination techniques at yellow belt.
    The attack is a right punch because something coming at you is...something coming at you. Not much time to factor if it's a punch or grab. If they already grab you then you must deal with that but not any differently that what the base techniques of FS and SF teach.
    There is no kick but it's easy to put one in however the essence of the technique is to have a solid foundation standing, blocking/checking, and hitting.
    Hope that helps. There is much more though.
    Alan
    Thanks for the reply Alan.

    Mike

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