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Thread: Knife type: considerations

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    Default Knife type: considerations

    The type of knife I like the best is a double edged fixed blade, like a daggar.
    BUT: Neither double edged knives nor fixed blades can be legally carried where I live. So....a folder is the remaining option I suppose.

    One of the biggest considerations for using a weapon is deployment: how quickly and easily can you get to and ready your blade. Lots of folders can be opened with one hand...those are my favorites. So opening the folder isn't so much the issue here. My question is where to keep it. For instance, my favorite place to clip a folder would be on the outside corner of my right front pocket, with the bulk of the knife in my pocket. But is that legal?? (((Bam?))) Would that make it "concealed" in the eyes of the law? from that position I can lift and open my knife pretty well, still working to improve the speed and fluidity of the motion though.

    What other considerations are there in knife choice or knife deployment??
    Length?
    Serrated or not?

    Thoughts????

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother John
    The type of knife I like the best is a double edged fixed blade, like a daggar.
    BUT: Neither double edged knives nor fixed blades can be legally carried where I live. So....a folder is the remaining option I suppose.

    One of the biggest considerations for using a weapon is deployment: how quickly and easily can you get to and ready your blade. Lots of folders can be opened with one hand...those are my favorites. So opening the folder isn't so much the issue here. My question is where to keep it. For instance, my favorite place to clip a folder would be on the outside corner of my right front pocket, with the bulk of the knife in my pocket. But is that legal?? (((Bam?))) Would that make it "concealed" in the eyes of the law? from that position I can lift and open my knife pretty well, still working to improve the speed and fluidity of the motion though.

    What other considerations are there in knife choice or knife deployment??
    Length?
    Serrated or not?

    Thoughts????

    Your Brother
    John

    I keep a Kukari and K-bar in my room at home in a drawer. Now if they are legal, I don't know. LOL.
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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    I keep a folder on me that is probably not legal. When walking through a less than savory neighborhood I usually hold the knife in my pocket, thumb in position to deploy. The draw method I employee is the one outlined in the knife manual by Mr. Mills. I've found that I can get the knife out and open pretty fast using that method.

    I haven't been in too many knife fights but I prefer the straight blade vs. the serated blade. The jags just make me think the knife might get too caught up in clothing. I don't know that for a fact but it stands to reason.

    Do you all practice your knife material interchanging slashing with thrusting methods of execution? I always look at it like good luck slashing through a leather duster, to get to the person sometimes you gotta stab.

    Thoughts?
    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Thrust/stab is very important. Especially if you are using an "impromtue" weapon, like a pencil, ice pick, screw-driver, pointy stick....etc. The "point" may be all you've got! Plus, like you said....some things can limit the ability to slash N slice.
    SO...yes. It's important to practice that!
    Good call!

    PLUS: There's a different reaction to being stabbed! There's a greater chance of fatality and there's a greater chance of them going in to shock pretty quick.
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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Here are a couple of links, the first one has laws for 50 states concerning knife carry, the second has two articles written by law professors pertaining to UK laws. Sorry for the forum it is on, but the articles are good, thats just where I found it when I searched.

    Mr. Jacob has always told me to stay away from serrated edges, for exactly the reasons you mentioned. I wrapped an old mattress pad around a poll in my yard, and put old jeans, coats etc on it. Practiced timing patterns on it with my knife, also adding in strikes; slashes, thrusts etc... It was pretty revealing as to what it takes to penetrate. The serrated blades did catch on the denim.
    I cary a folder, right where you mentionded in my right pocket, I
    unscrewed the clip, fliped it around and re-tapped some holes so it sits like the Mills folders. That way I can deploy the blade as I pull the knife from my pocket. However, I have recently seen some folders that come that way in kife shops (but all with serrated edges), it use to be that you couldn't find them that way at all.
    http://pweb.netcom.com/~brlevine/sta-law.htm






    http://www.stormfront.org/forum/showthread.php?t=129818





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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Uh...sorry, I really sort of am, but you cannot possibly trust ANYTHING posted on stormfront.org. That is an extreme right-wing, racist (their terms, I might add) website put up by a group of yahoos who believe that Hitler had the right ideas, that the Klan is a patriotic, decent organization--and to speak to the point, have a vested, deep interest in distorting reality in order to advance their crackpot full of ugly ideas.

    You will NOT be able to get an honest, or rational, account of weapons laws from a group that believes these laws come from minority groups that just want to keep the holy White Man down.

    As for the knife topic--well, my take would be that if you know what you're doing and you're willing to do it, a butter knife is lethal. And, I'd suggest, we'd do better to hone our skills--which is what several posters seem to be doing--than fussbudgeting over The Right Knife.

    Two partisan things I'd add: a) there's a fair amount of knife info in the basic kenpo system, if you but look for it; b) it might behoove folks to get acquainted with what it actually looks like when somebody gets cut by a knife or razor before they cheerily go off about using a knife or razor.

    Sorry--wasn't going to say anything, but that "stormfront" crap...

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    As for the knife topic--well, my take would be that if you know what you're doing and you're willing to do it, a butter knife is lethal. And, I'd suggest, we'd do better to hone our skills--which is what several posters seem to be doing--than fussbudgeting over The Right Knife.

    Two partisan things I'd add: a) there's a fair amount of knife info in the basic kenpo system, if you but look for it; b) it might behoove folks to get acquainted with what it actually looks like when somebody gets cut by a knife or razor before they cheerily go off about using a knife or razor.

    Sorry--wasn't going to say anything, but that "stormfront" crap...
    Hey Robert-
    First off, I wholeheartedly agree. StormFront and all other sites/orgs like it are sick and twisted. I'd like to think that Jason just did a search for knife articles/postings and stumbled upon it by chance. I dunno... But on what you say they are.....you're spot on!

    As for the knife stuff:
    Yes, anyone who knows what they are doing (which is the key here, I think) can make a well sharpened crayon a weapon. So your saying "We'd do better to hone our skills." Is Very true. But I do think that chosing the best tool for the job is also an important consideration. ((yuk....a crayon puncture wound...nasty!!)

    Getting aquainted with what a cut looks like...etc.
    Yes!!
    Your speaking of "Cheerily...using a knife or razor" creaps me out. Not because you said it, but to think of someone that delights in the thought of slashing some mother's son!! I'd not want such a person in my school. Heck, I'd not want such a person Near me at all! I personally think that if we are going to be worthy of training with a knife (or the use of lethal force by any means)...the thought of having to do so SHOULD turn our stomach!! If we train with a blade with the 'eager' anticipation that we might "Get too use it", then we're no better than monsters. That's why I'm glad there is also an emphasis on character building in our martial arts (in general). While we can't reach in and scrutinize somones morals and ethics like we can duck under the hood of a car to check it's engine, we can observe their behavior over time and if need be........refuse to teach them how to use a knife/club....or even their hands for that matter. Lots of our Kenpo techniques are, or can be made to be, quite deadly. It's like handing someone a gun!!
    Personally I reserve the right to NOT train anyone.
    Like someone who'd come in my school who's wearing a "Storm-Front" T-shirt.

    nope.....



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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Just to clarify, for those of you who missed this in my original post;

    "Sorry for the forum it is on, but the articles are good, thats just where I found it when I searched."
    The articles were previously posted on a knife site, where I read them first, I knew the authors name, and searched it, and as I explained already, that is the only place it came up. I suppose I could have cut the entire article and posted it.... just seemed uneccessary, but perhaps not...

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    What a knife wound looks like and reactions to being sliced or stabbed...

    John:

    I differ regarding the stab wound/shock comment. Most folk are pretty lousy stab shots, and with adrenal dump going on in both parties, there are more vital target misses than hits. Lotsa guys (cops, bouncers, guys addicted to fighting in public places, etc.) who get stabbed don't even know they've been cut until someone else points out the blood coming from their shirts.

    Additionally, depending on where you stab, muscles have an odd tendency to contract around a knife, and hang on to it. I've personally experienced this, both as a stabee and a witness. Bouncer buddy of mine gets attacked with a knife during a tackle, throws up a leg check to intercept the weapons incoming path, and neither he nor his attacker can get the knife out of the charlie horse. For me, ...I found out at 16 that trying to kick a knife out of someones hand just gets a knife stuck in your foot. And the foot hangs on (again, muscle spasm around the insult, and extracting the thing is a bitch).

    Finally, on the character thing...I trained for a spell in a TAI school, where the instructor had a knife class fetish. Couple months after I moved on to another school, I'd heard one of the young brown belt assistant instructrors attacked and killed his Mom with a knife. Even as a trained knife-wielder, he had to slash and stab her well over a dozen times in the body and along major arteries to finally take her out. She apparently ran through the house screaming, throwing things at him, and recieving several defense wounds on her arms before surrendering to her gross fate.

    The clean knife defense is a myth. The clean knife attack is a myth. Knives are sloppy, and psychologically traumatic for the user and the target. One can shoot someone, and remain relatively disconnected. Knives are personal. Too many kenpo guys out there preaching primacy of knives as the completion of kenpo (i.e., Pick); by the time you've decided to cut someone, you will have gone to a place in your character not easily returned from.

    As a kenpoist, train so you don't need weapons. Train so that you ARE the weapon. BE the scary monster that goes bump in the night, but live your life as if you aren't.

    Be careful with your minds.

    Dave
    Last edited by Dr. Dave in da house; 10-14-2005 at 02:58 PM.
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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Dr. Dave

    Good point,
    My younger brother was attacked by an assailant wielding a knife, he kicked it out of the attackers hand, pumled him, and took the kife home with him, stuck in the front of his calf just along his shin bone. I think we probably caused more damage pulling it out than it caused on the way in. I didn't think of it at the time, but it makes sense that the muscle seized around it.

    I agree also, with your point about the psych effects, that knife wasn't big, and the wound only in the leg, but there was a lot of blood. I volunteered with violent crime/assult victims, women mostly but men too... very real, very severe effects beyond the physical.

    Jason

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house
    As a kenpoist, train so you don't need weapons. Train so that you ARE the weapon.
    mature, insightful, and responsible.... well put dave.

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Jason: You are right...I did miss that. Thanks!


    Dave: Interesting insights! Thank you for sharing them.

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    And sorry for those who missed the point of my post, but no, the articles are NOT, "good," for the simple reason that these people (and I use "people," loosely) have an axe to grind about white people, their fantasy of the right to carry weapons, and their fantasy of the reasons--black people--that their kind needs to have a weapon at all times. Anything, anything at all that they put up there, is there to support the claims of racists. It is hopelessly bent.

    Nor is this bentedness subtle and hard-to-find: the top of the cited forum contains the logo,"WHITE PRIDE WORLD WIDE," superimposed upon what might as well be a swastika; posters on the same page include a lunatic from the, "Odinist Society," an unabashed Aryan supermacy/mystic Nazi organization.

    I understand that everybody on this thread--I hope--knows this stuff already. Still, it would be easy to find far better discussions from all sorts of sites--why bother with these creeps? It is in fact irresponsible to use these guys' claims as if they were anything other than hopelessly biased--and, from my viewpoint, they give a very, very ugly edge indeed to perfectly legit discussions of the right to bear various arms and to learn how to bear them well. For one thing, the use of this crap makes it appear as though there really is an ugly, cheerful fascination with cutting people--about which, again, I assume everybody on this thread already knows better.

    Whoever this Dr. Dave person is, him got it going on. Absolutely right, and absolutely the most of my point, put better in some ways.

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    OK, got it:
    That website = bad. I think that's pretty well covered now.

    I'm still not convinced that training to fight with an edged/pointed tool (knife) is bad or not called for. But to each their own.

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    As far as the knife and what Dr. Dave said, Mr. Mills put a LOT of thought and insight to his knife designs. If you understand the shaping of the Mills fighter, it makes for a very deadly weapon no matter. I do agree about the mindset. Very up close and personal. In the AKKI , if you plan on using one or not, the training helps to refine your empty hand motion. I myself believe at the least one should have an understanding of it since any place in public you go, it's hard to not count numorous people carrying some kind of utility or folder type knife that you can see anyways.

    Alan

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    OK, what I actually said was: a) everybody on thread know website=bad; some folks not understanding that everything on website contaminated and untrustworthy; b) it might be good to think through the idea of fetishizing the knife, and to actually understand what a cut on a human being is like.

    I'd add: I have no real idea what Mr. Mills' knife stuff is like, and I'm, quite willing to accept that it's good stuff. I'd simply note that a) the base system has a great deal of knife material in it; b) the kenpo knives used in Form 8 were purpose-designed by people with a fair amount of knowledge--you know, Gil Hibben.

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    This is what I posted on another thread RM.

    "When I was training with Mr. Mills in the early 90's and still in the IKKA, I had my eyes opened on many occasions as he would pull out the leather sheath of his Parker knife and go to town on me or anyone else close by. He would say this is how he saw Mr. Parker move with a knife - close, tight, very fast and once the knife was on the body it did not come off until he was done. Then he taught us his knife dexterity set and a few knifetechniques and drills way back then. Long before the AKKI. I remember him teaching a seminar once with the closing to long form two (using knives and showing the various applications). Amazing. Now of course he has taken things much farther than those days. So I am sure Jamie(or yourself) has some great insights from what he/you have been shown. There is knife stuff in the IKKA material for sure, just not an established curriculum like we have but if the instructors ever saw Mr. Parker move a knife, I would think they would have an idea of how to think about it and then hopefully extract application and mechanics from that.

    I'll never forget the time we stopped by the Startdust and ran into Gil Hibben. Mr. Mills and chatted and then invited us all (Tommy Chavies, Ryan Wheaton, Brian Woodward and a couple of my black belts) to his room and see his knife collection that he had with him at the time. He had some really cool stuff like that was any surprise. What was interesting though is Gill demonstrated what techniques he was going to teach at his upcoming seminars. After he did this, he pressed Mr. Mills as to what he was doing. Mr. Mills proceeded to rip something with a leather sheath on one of my black belts. I had never seen anything like nor had anyone in the room. It was stone cold quiet in that room. I remember looking at people's faces in the room after he was done and see just this blank look like, "where in the hell did that come from and what the hell was it?" Again, my perception of the event. I remember Tommy Chavies saying to me that that was one of the most amazing things he had ever seen. This would have been around the time that the AKKI was just formed. Mr. Mills had this stuff working long before the AKKI. He got the ideas and foundation from Mr. Parker. So it's out there. I think it's hard to find though."

    Alan

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    b) it might be good to think through the idea of fetishizing the knife, and to actually understand what a cut on a human being is like.

    I'd add: I have no real idea what Mr. Mills' knife stuff is like, and I'm, quite willing to accept that it's good stuff. I'd simply note that a) the base system has a great deal of knife material in it; b) the kenpo knives used in Form 8 were purpose-designed by people with a fair amount of knowledge--you know, Gil Hibben.
    Just wondering if you'd clarify for me:
    What do you mean by "Fetishizing" and how is it being done here?
    Like I said before, I agree with the notion that anyone training to fight with a weapon really should fully understand what using that weapon would do, what the ramifications personally, emotionally, morally, legally...etc. would be like. Doing less than this would be irresponsible.

    Yes!!! The AKKI knife material is Very good.

    By saying that the "base system" has a "great deal" of knife material in it.... I think we'd differ a great deal on what a "Great deal" of material is, that's pretty relative. Also: We might disagree as to what exactly constitutes "knife material".

    In your last sentence I take it you are refering not to material but to the knife itself, right?
    It's a nice knife, but it's a little impractical and cumbersome. I think it's been greatly improved upon by Mr. Mills...
    and probably even Mr. Hibben too.

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    1. I go with "Dr. Dave," and his viewpoint. I'd be interested to know how many posters have actually seen somebody who's been cut badly.

    2. I find it curious that posters would be so picky about the details of this knife or that knife, and so cavalier about where they get their information from.

    3. I think that there's plenty of knife info in the plain old kenpo system to suit all practical purposes, especially since the whole point of carrying a knife is to cut your attacker before they know it. It is not to knife fight.

    4. I see nothing wrong--as I've now written FOUR times--with people's getting into the specializations of knives, as long as it doesn't jack up their illusions and their ego. After all, kenpo as a system could easily be accused of being fascinated with unnecessary trivia, and I'm into that. Let's just not make any of it more than it is.

    5. I look forward to the day when folks will be just as fetishistic about ways of avoiding fights of any kind--and just as fetishistic about building a better society--as they are about weapons. Touchy-feely, lefty greenery, I know, but there it is.

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    Default Re: Knife type: considerations

    Quote Originally Posted by rmcr
    1. I go with "Dr. Dave," and his viewpoint. I'd be interested to know how many posters have actually seen somebody who's been cut badly.

    2. I find it curious that posters would be so picky about the details of this knife or that knife, and so cavalier about where they get their information from.

    3. I think that there's plenty of knife info in the plain old kenpo system to suit all practical purposes, especially since the whole point of carrying a knife is to cut your attacker before they know it. It is not to knife fight.

    4. I see nothing wrong--as I've now written FOUR times--with people's getting into the specializations of knives, as long as it doesn't jack up their illusions and their ego. After all, kenpo as a system could easily be accused of being fascinated with unnecessary trivia, and I'm into that. Let's just not make any of it more than it is.

    5. I look forward to the day when folks will be just as fetishistic about ways of avoiding fights of any kind--and just as fetishistic about building a better society--as they are about weapons. Touchy-feely, lefty greenery, I know, but there it is.
    1. Dave made some very good points.
    Yes, Iv'e seen a few people who'd been cut badly. Twice it was from a violent attack, once from a very horrible accident. In one I pressed the towels down around the knife that was imbedded in the stabbing victims abdomen until the paramedics could get there. Another time the boy about died when he fell hard on a window pane and cut his neck VERY badly. My co-worker did what he could to staunch the bleeding, he survived but lost quite a bit of blood. Another result of violent attack ended up in a sucking chest wound....very very nasty. I'll never forget any of these days.

    2. I know that that site was bad, but ONE person sighted it....now it's "Posters". Please let it go, maybe we could salvage a discussion.

    3. That's nice. But this discussion didn't begin there, it was started here.... in the "Mills" section. But thank you for your commentary on what you consider to be the "plain old" Kenpo system.

    4. Who's working with jacked up ego's or illusions in this thread? I thought the subject was pretty pragmatic and straightforward. Seems to me you might be reading a whole lot of your own presumptions into it.

    5. Avoiding fights is an excellent topic. Start a thread. Same with building a better society!! Very worthy topic, but I don't know if a martial arts forum is the best venue to carry that message... might try something designed to reach more people from a broader spectrum....but I guess we should all do what we can. These two subjects aren't "Lefty"...they are mature and responsible. But like I said, maybe a different venue would do better.
    In a Kenpo forum a lot of talk is devoted to fighting, training to fight....etc.

    You still didn't clarify what you mean by "Fetishize".

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