Knife type: considerations

[cloak13]

given a situation where you are facing an attacker who has a blade (assume short knife or equivalent) would you rather have a knife yourself, or have the use of 2 empty hands?

Knife, I still have two hands, one just has a tool in it. That tool can also be used for manipulation and disarming in similar yet more devistating ways than fingers. Remember that a knife is fairly versitile and can be held in multiple ways, short and long held for each, that the angle created by the wrist and bottom of the handle becomes a hooking/pinching device. And keep in mind non-lethal but disabling attacks such as thrusts into the rotator cuff, hammering the colar bone, using the blade to slap the back of the hand, etc...

Also, as a side note, yes there are two things I always carry on me. One is my knife, the other is my flashlight. Both have come in handy on occasions. Heck I used my knife at work the other night when we all ordered pizza's and one came uncut. Do I go looking to use my knife, no, but I'd rather be prepared then caught in a situtation when I'm saying, boy I could use a knife right now.

Tim Kulp
Westminster, MD

[Brother John]

when you're a jet your a jet all the way...

that sounds cool...




what does it mean???


Your Brother
John

[Brother John]

I'd rather be prepared then caught in a situtation when I'm saying, boy I could use a knife right now.

Tim Kulp
Westminster, MD

GREAT point Tim!!!

I'd rather have my knife and not need it than need my knife and not have it!!


Your Brother
John

[Dr. Dave in da house]

that sounds cool...




what does it mean???


Your Brother
John

Lyric from West Side Story.

[Blindside]

that sounds cool...

what does it mean???

Your Brother
John

Psst.... West Side Story.

Lamont

[Dr. Dave in da house]

Sticker. Familiar enough with it not to cut mtself, and to keep the other guy shy about coming out of the gate.

[John M. La Tourrette]

I differ regarding the stab wound/shock comment. Most folk are pretty lousy stab shots, and with adrenal dump going on in both parties, there are more vital target misses than hits. Lotsa guys (cops, bouncers, guys addicted to fighting in public places, etc.) who get stabbed don't even know they've been cut until someone else points out the blood coming from their shirts.
Dave

The one time I got cut (Cuidad Acuna), I had no clue I'd gotten cut until a few minutes later when a friend noticed the blood running down my arm and off my fingers.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[John M. La Tourrette]

I'd rather have my knife and not need it than need my knife and not have it!!

Only one?

I know a Kenpo guy that carries 3 knives all the time and they are all legal pocket tools.

One, a clip on with the 3 1/2 inch blade is easily thrown with NO twirl to 6 feet. With one twirl up to 10 feet.

It's a tool of distance and to install pain, fear and confusion.

He then carries another clip on 1 1/2 blade in his front pocket and has actually taught classes on it called "Secrets of the Dragon's Fang".

With that knife he just sees to flick his finger tips and people fall down screaming, if they can.

And then he keeps another tool in his pocket that works quite well as a "fist load".

And he's really good at fighting without them handy, invisible tools.

He calls them "tools of distraction", and having the "extra Edge".

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[thedan]

... I differ regarding the stab wound/shock comment. Most folk are pretty lousy stab shots, and with adrenal dump going on in both parties, there are more vital target misses than hits. Lotsa guys (cops, bouncers, guys addicted to fighting in public places, etc.) who get stabbed don't even know they've been cut until someone else points out the blood coming from their shirts.

Additionally, depending on where you stab, muscles have an odd tendency to contract around a knife, and hang on to it. ...

Yep, on all three counts. There are very few quick kills in knife fights. And many don't know they've been cut/stabed, or how bad, until later. Often, they don't even know there was a weapon involved until afterward. And blades do get stuck in both bone and muscle. The military teaches you to squeeze off a round if your bayonette gets stuck- and the rifle is a heck of a handle to be pulling with. If they need the extra help, ... .

... he kicked it out of the attackers hand, pumled him, and took the kife home with him, stuck in the front of his calf just along his shin bone. I think we probably caused more damage pulling it out than it caused on the way in. ...

You probably did. Unless there is some pressing need to remove it, you should never pull any object from an impaling injury. Pad and bandage it so it doesn't move, immobilize the body part that is impaled, and protect the injury until the ambulance arrives.

NOTE: we now switch to the generic "you."

You did call the ambulance, right?

What do you mean, no? Can you do CPR in your car while driving to the hospital? Oh, your friend can. I see. Well, I've done it in the back of a fully equiped ambulance, and believe me, it's no fun. It's not that effective, either. And we trained to do it on bad roads on recording dummies before we had to do it for real.

Shock is a very real factor in the treatment of knife wounds, and can lead to cardiac arrest very quicly. And anyone who's been in a knife fight is guaranteed to be in some stage of at least psychological and possibly hypovolemic shock. Don't risk it. Call 911 and get the ambulance and the police on the way. Even if you have to leave the scene for your safety, call them as soon as possible and arrange to meet them (unless you are just a few blocks from a hospital, fire or police station).

Sorry. I read RMCR's rants and got inspired ...

Dan C

[thedan]

... What other considerations are there in knife choice or knife deployment?? ...

Train with what you use: I bought a couple of cheap Karambits just out of curiosity. They were ok, but I really saw no need to train them much- until I discovered what a great tool they are! I now carry one for some types of work. So, I work out with it as well.

How do you prefer to use the knife: I like to be able to hook and pull with the option to not do seriouse harm. So I prefer a single edged weapon with a sharpened false edge. I hold it in a reverse grip, and can trap an arm and pull the opponent into a live hand strike without flaying him. I could also come off that and kill, but I don't want to risk that unless absolutely necessary (or if he's a dirt-bag ... WAIT, I didn't say that... !)

Carry parameters: What do you usually wear when you carry the knife? Do you want it concealed, or in plain sight? How will your attire effect deployment under seriouse assault? ...

The law: You mentioned the restrictions the law puts on you. But, consider too the appearance you create with the type knife you carry. Order up a Rambo Knife, and, if you have to use it the opposing attorney will be only too happy to point out that you are a Rambo wanna-be. Intent is what it appears, not what it is.

Grip: Get a handle that fits and will stay secure with sweat and blood on your palms.

Obviouse stuff: Ballance, quality of steel and other materials, finish (matte or polished), utility, size, weight.

Dan C

[Carol]

It's all about the blade.

A softer steel will be more subject to corrosion, less able to maintain an edge, and less able to withstand a combat application. Stainless steel, contrary to popular believe, can indeed rust. Avoid carry blades made from carbon steels or tool-grade steels as they corrode to easily. Branded steels and surgical steels make an bargain-quality blade with a bit better corrosion resistance and edge retention.

Rustproof steel (H1) is not a harder steel but is impervious to rust. Highly recommended for folks that live in coastal communities or spend a lot of time in or near the ocean.

Premium steels such as AUS 10 resist corrosion much better, hold a sharper edge, and make for a more rigid blade. Stainless supersteels such as VG10 is the hardest steel one can find in a mass-production blade.

The highest quality blades are of a Damascus steel or Damascus supersteel, but these are an order of magnitude higher in price. The Damascene process involves folding several layers of steel or supersteel on top of one another.

[John M. La Tourrette]

It's all about the blade.

I disagree.

It's NEVER about the "tool" but how well you can "use" the tool.

Case in point.

Look at Miyamoto Musashi and his thumping people with sticks.

Look a 911 when the pukes held up planes and killed thousands of people with the "threat" of a $3 box cutter.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[John M. La Tourrette]

Train with what you use: I bought a couple of cheap Karambits just out of curiosity. They were ok, but I really saw no need to train them much- until I discovered what a great tool they are! I now carry one for some types of work. So, I work out with it as well.

How do you prefer to use the knife: I like to be able to hook and pull with the option to not do seriouse harm. So I prefer a single edged weapon with a sharpened false edge. I hold it in a reverse grip, and can trap an arm and pull the opponent into a live hand strike without flaying him. I could also come off that and kill, but I don't want to risk that unless absolutely necessary (or if he's a dirt-bag ... WAIT, I didn't say that... !)

Carry parameters: What do you usually wear when you carry the knife? Do you want it concealed, or in plain sight? How will your attire effect deployment under seriouse assault? ...

The law: You mentioned the restrictions the law puts on you. But, consider too the appearance you create with the type knife you carry. Order up a Rambo Knife, and, if you have to use it the opposing attorney will be only too happy to point out that you are a Rambo wanna-be. Intent is what it appears, not what it is.

Grip: Get a handle that fits and will stay secure with sweat and blood on your palms.

Obviouse stuff: Ballance, quality of steel and other materials, finish (matte or polished), utility, size, weight.

Dan C

All of this is covered in explicit detail in Warrior's Guide to Knife Fighting (1985).

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[John M. La Tourrette]

I'd rather have my knife and not need it than need my knife and not have it!!

Use environmental conditioning.

Learn to pick up a tool from the envirnoment from around you.

Get used to that idea,

And then you can NEVER be arrested to carrying a concealed weapon without a license.

Or with "intent to go armed".

I know a fella that carries a 5" long gray plastic pipe in his coat pocket.

A great fist load,

And a great sharp end to slam into someone's throat or other targets of effectiveness.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[John M. La Tourrette]

Thought provoking post Dr Dave, thankyou.

Personally, the thought of having to deal with some lunatic with a blade scares the bejeezus out of me, and i find it difficult to empathise with those MAs i've met who seem almost eager to get into a confrontation involving a knife, just to see if they could actually cut someone.

Also, i may have to borrow your 'scary monster' line at some point - exactly what i am trying to achieve with my training!

Respectfully,

Alex

Give me an hour with you and I can fix that fear, and replace it with something else more productive.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[John M. La Tourrette]

One reason I say to be careful with your minds is based on my own experiences, and those of my comrades. You look for what you train. If you train kenpo, and some guy gets in your face, you start looking for targets of opportunity & environmental factors that may affect choices. If you train in groundfighting, you go in your head to identifying strengths and weaknesses of the guy as a grappler (i.e., "dude has strong arms; shoot low under their reach or get behinfd them"). If you train in knives, your mind will automatically start looking for open carotids, etc. Once the person accross from you stops being a human, and starts being a series of targets for strategic exploitation, you lose the ability to maintain human compassion under the heat of combat. In other words, if you carry a knife, and think like a knife-fighter, you are apt to cut like one.

Step away from becoming murderers and maulers,

Yep.

I fell into that trap back in the Echanis, Sanders, biker, train cops era.

Always looking for an "excuse" to use what you know.

I was lucky in that I figured it out in time.

Echanis died.

Sander's died.

Many of those others died.

A couple are either in jail or on the run because they "used" excessive force at the incorrect time.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[John M. La Tourrette]

Like I said, your points are good and your intention for sharing them here is laudible! We MUST impress on our students the use of self restraint, good ethic and solid character. Like I said, I won't work knife (Or empty hand for that matter) material with someone who gets off on the idea of "Getting" to use it on someone. If the nastiness we can dish out doesn't roll the stomach a time or two as you ponder it.... then I don't think you've (the rhetorical "you" not....YOU...Dave/reader) got any business doing it!

And isn't that the reason the knife tactics are NOT taught until they already have a Kenpo Karate black belt?

Of course we could dumb it down so that 1st grade 6 year olds could NOT injure anyone.

What do you think?
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

[madeku]

Use environmental conditioning.

Learn to pick up a tool from the envirnoment from around you.

Get used to that idea,

And then you can NEVER be arrested to carrying a concealed weapon without a license.

Or with "intent to go armed".

I know a fella that carries a 5" long gray plastic pipe in his coat pocket.

A great fist load,

And a great sharp end to slam into someone's throat or other targets of effectiveness.

Dr. John M. La Tourrette

lol carry around a smooth, handfull sized rock in your pocket.. you could always say (if yer attacked outside) you saw it on the ground and picked it up. lol perfect size to throw, or hit with. hey protect your natural weapons if you can!

[Brother John]

And isn't that the reason the knife tactics are NOT taught until they already have a Kenpo Karate black belt?

Of course we could dumb it down so that 1st grade 6 year olds could NOT injure anyone.

What do you think?
Dr. John M. La Tourrette

In the AKKI, where I was 'brought up'....and in who's particular area of the forum THIS is in ( AKKI Paul Mills ....) ..the weapon curriculum (knife & club) are independent of the 'main' (for lack of a better term) Kenpo curriculum. So a person needn't wait till beyond black to aquire the knowledge/skill of knife fighting. I believe it's generally expected in fact for a student to have the "1st Level" of each under their belt before going for their shodan. I think it's a good idea. The curricula are interdependent, things you learn in one, help you with the others (Empty hand / Knife / Club)....and lead to a synergistic growth of all of our skills.

I could be wrong (trust me, it happens) but I think you're kidding, a little 'tongue in cheek' with

Of course we could dumb it down so that 1st grade 6 year olds could NOT injure anyone.

Because I don't believe in dumbing down anything. Making it more and more simple? Yes.
BUT: Not for children. I'd not teach weaponry to anyone that's not an adult.
Besides, I learned long ago when I practiced a system that uses Okinawan/Japanese weaponry....the first year of instruction isn't in trying to make it difficult or easy for them to hurt someone else, but to help them to keep from cutting themselves to ribbons.
I remember helping a person with the nunchaku and telling them that I had seen some real 'growth' in their ability. WHen they asked me what that growth was I told them honestly:
You no longer smack the **** out of yourself on a regular basis.


Your Brother
John

[Brother John]

lol carry around a smooth, handfull sized rock in your pocket.. you could always say (if yer attacked outside) you saw it on the ground and picked it up. lol perfect size to throw, or hit with. hey protect your natural weapons if you can!

OR: if you're anywhere near the woodshed, remember what "The Pale Rider" said:

"Aint nuthin like a good piece O' Hickory"

Your Brother
John