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Thread: Elastic Recoil

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    execkenpo is offline
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    Default Elastic Recoil

    There was reference to this concept in the thread about Mr. Palanzo.

    For your viewiing Pleasure

    Can we get some folks who have a good understanding of this to share their insight.

    Thanks

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    I too would like some insight on this topic.
    Thanks

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Elastic Recoil is often referred to as rebounding or bouncing. The concept involved is that often when an object first rebounds off an elastic material (flesh for instance) it rebounds at a faster speed than it initially hit. This increase in speed and acceleration increases the force the object generates. This is most commonly seen in EPAK as the "rebounding backfist" off of the abdomen. If you pay attention to AKKI'ers they rebound off of many more places than what is commonly taught in most EPAK schools. Rebounding also reduces the time of execution. Example: For my arm to execute a hook punch and then reverse travel and execute a back knuckle, ordinarily I'd have to "fire" a group of muscles to start the arm moving, fire another set to stop it, and then fire another set to start it moving again in another direction. This takes time and energy. Rebounding removes the stop phase and the restart phase. Utilizing elastic recoil the arm would be "fired" into motion. The elastic collision would automatically stop the arm and relaunch it in the opposite direction. The muscles that would ordinarily have to overcome inertia and "refire" the arm are now free to simply fire and add to the acceleration the arm already has. A faster, harder blow. That's one of Mr. Mills' big secrets. Watch him execute his movements and you'll see this done several times per technique..rebounding off of himself, rebounding off of the opponent's body, etc. Elastic Recoil is one of the many uses for the "slap check".
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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Ahh Rebounding.I thought the question was about the returning motion of a strike after the extension. Like stretching a rubber band.

    Thanks, thats what I like about learning.

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Ahh Rebounding.I thought the question was about the returning motion of a strike after the extension. Like stretching a rubber band.

    Thanks, thats what I like about learning.
    I'm sure it applies on any blow landed. But is it useful? I would think tension in the (suddenly) antagonist muscles would overwhelm any elastic rebound generated by the impact. But I'm just guessing, I have no data on that.

    Is the kinetic energy "added" (or is that, not as much lost?) by the elasticity alone enough to be meaningful?

    Changing directions, muscle groups, etc... that seems to be a very significant component.

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    So from what James said, the self 'slapping' we often see is elastic recoil when done properly and appropriately. Can I assume then that slapping ones own leg when executing a kick serves no useful purpose, or is there something there I'm missing?

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    So from what James said, the self 'slapping' we often see is elastic recoil when done properly and appropriately. Can I assume then that slapping ones own leg when executing a kick serves no useful purpose, or is there something there I'm missing?
    I would say, "It depends". There are some useful slaps to the thigh that assist with stability in stance before or after maneuvers, and kicks are often thrown in conjunction with foot maneuvers. In fact, most often. There are some proprioceptive cues that can be obtained from contacting various muscle groups, depending on where one is in the movement series thay are executing. But I have only seen very few use this approach mindful of what they were doing and why. Most leg slaps just seem to be an internal cue for the player, and can be used as tells in exchanges.

    D.
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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    James' post is a great example of "External Elastic Recoil". There is also "Internal Elastic Recoil" which is what I think Mr. Mills is talking about towards the end of his "Energy Clip" on youtube.
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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by KenpoJuJitsu3
    Elastic Recoil is often referred to as rebounding or bouncing. The concept involved is that often when an object first rebounds off an elastic material (flesh for instance) it rebounds at a faster speed than it initially hit. This increase in speed and acceleration increases the force the object generates. ... Rebounding also reduces the time of execution. Example: For my arm to execute a hook punch and then reverse travel and execute a back knuckle, ordinarily I'd have to "fire" a group of muscles to start the arm moving, fire another set to stop it, and then fire another set to start it moving again in another direction. This takes time and energy. Rebounding removes the stop phase and the restart phase. Utilizing elastic recoil the arm would be "fired" into motion. The elastic collision would automatically stop the arm and relaunch it in the opposite direction. The muscles that would ordinarily have to overcome inertia and "refire" the arm are now free to simply fire and add to the acceleration the arm already has. A faster, harder blow.
    Doc has pointed out that this is especially true when the flesh you hit is your own. Touching your self gives the weapon a point of reference, since your body is aware of where its' parts are at all times (barring a state of spatial distortion). Part of your proprioceptive neuro functioning.

    Embeded in the ends of your tendons are nerve bundles called golgi organs. Their purpose is to sense speed and accelaration, as well as the ammount of extension. If you throw a strike and the golgi organs send the message "too far, too fast", then you subconsciously and automatiocally slow the strike. It's a reflex, called the golgi organ reflex. However, if you strike the shoulder of your striking arm with your opposite hand, both are given proprioceptive cues that they will not overextend and do dammage. The slap tells the striking arm that there is a check in place so the shoulder joints won't be strained by the extension of the strike. It also tells the slaping hand where it will be stoped, so there is no need to engage muscles to slow and stop the hand. As Mr. Hawkins points out, you've broken the cycle of tension and relaxation required to slow, then stop, then restart the desired movments.

    Interesting discussion.

    Dan C

    note: credit Doc with pointing this concept out to me, but credit my limmited understanding if I've made any mistakes. And full credit will be given anyone more knowlegable who corrects any errors or adds to understanding.
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Man I have so much to learn

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    James' post is a great example of "External Elastic Recoil". There is also "Internal Elastic Recoil" which is what I think Mr. Mills is talking about towards the end of his "Energy Clip" on youtube.
    Muscle, ligament, tendon and joint physiology reveals multiple momnent of transition back and forth between potential and kinetic energy in the locomotive tissues of the body. Very interesting to read some of the literature on this stuff with an eye towards kenpo, rather than just passing the next quiz.

    I would recommend anyone interested in exploring this pick up the following books:

    1. "Essentials of Strength Training and Conditioning", by Beachle & Earle. The text used by the National Strength and Conditioning Association in preparation for the CSCS certification, the gold-standard strength & conditioning coach cert.

    2. "Joint Structure & Function: A comprehensive Analysis", by Norkin & LeVangie. A good enough introduction to the anatomy, physiology, and functional biomechanics o fthe various joint complexes of the body.

    3. "Textbook of Medical Physiology", by Guyton & Hall. Particularly the 2nd unit, with the chapters on muscle cell physiology. Contraction, Excitation, etc.

    4. "Manter & Gantz's Essentials of Clinical Neuroanatomy & Neurophysiology", by Gilman and Winans-Newman. A good cliff-notes primer on ...well...neurophys.

    In short, it's not just a kenpo concept someone pulled out of their hiney. It's some of the kenpo that crops up when people put their thinking caps on, and can be found in lineages other than Mr. Mills...other kenpoists also think.

    D.
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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    ...Embeded in the ends of your tendons are nerve bundles called golgi organs. Their purpose is to sense speed and accelaration, as well as the ammount of extension. ...
    Well, I was gonna go there, but now I think I'm just gonna go run some errands. I have become redundant, and will now pass into the West.
    Clear mind, clear movement. Mastery of the Arts is mastery over the Self. That in this moment, this motion, the thoughts, memories, impulses and passions that cloud the mind must yield to the clarity of purpose, and purity of motion.

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Man I have so much to learn
    Well, sir, this is a good place to do it. There are several very knowlegable posters here who have set me on the right path a few times, and drug my butt back when I stray too much as well. Dr. Crouch is one of them, and we need to drag his butt back from the "West" as he's one of the authorities on this topic.

    Quote Originally Posted by Dr. Dave in da house View Post
    Well, I was gonna go there, but now I think I'm just gonna go run some errands. I have become redundant, and will now pass into the West.
    Hardly redundant. I was hoping you'd comment further, actually. I've done some research, but have nowhere near the understanding of you or Doc.

    Dan C
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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikael151 View Post
    James' post is a great example of "External Elastic Recoil". There is also "Internal Elastic Recoil" which is what I think Mr. Mills is talking about towards the end of his "Energy Clip" on youtube.
    Can you elaborate on Internal Elastic Recoil. I have read Dan and Dr. Dave's posts and as I understand it seems they are both speaking to the external.

    I have some questions too:

    1) Does Mr. Mills explicitly teach these concepts, both external and internal?
    2) If so, how, when?

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by MARSHALLS KENPO View Post
    Man I have so much to learn
    Ditto here my friend. I've been involved in kenpo as long as you, though I've hardly the rank you do. I feel like my journey has just begun.

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    ... I have read Dan and Dr. Dave's posts and as I understand it seems they are both speaking to the external. ...
    Nope. Internal. Your neurological system is about as internal as you can get. However, the internal has a definate effect on the external, and anything done externally will effect the internal.

    Dan C
    There are things that are worth knowing for their own sake, worth finding for the pure joy of discovery.

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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    The conversation seems to be mostly focused on the rebounding effects off of your own body (like the slap checks) or the opponent (i.e. Shielding Hammer). Couldn't this concept of elastic recoil also be applied to other affecting factors, such as the ground or a wall? For example, in Thrusting Salute, when we step back to 4:30, we train to use that step back as a launching pad for the kick. In other words, we don't step back, rest, and then throw the kick, rather we immediately rebound off the backstep with the kick to fire it faster and with less muscle effort to acheive the same result.

    Along these same lines, I believe you could apply Newton's First Law of Physics as being a cornerstone to elastic recoil. As in Shielding Hammer, the block would be the object in motion that tends to stay in motion, and the left punch that is blocked would be the outside force that acts upon it. Newton's law is what removes the need for our muscles to stop an action, because an outside force (the block) does it for us. Elastic Recoil would then be the ability to take advantage of that stop.
    "Your kung fu's no good..."
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    Default Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by domino3700 View Post
    The conversation seems to be mostly focused on the rebounding effects off of your own body (like the slap checks) or the opponent (i.e. Shielding Hammer). Couldn't this concept of elastic recoil also be applied to other affecting factors, such as the ground or a wall? For example, in Thrusting Salute, when we step back to 4:30, we train to use that step back as a launching pad for the kick. In other words, we don't step back, rest, and then throw the kick, rather we immediately rebound off the backstep with the kick to fire it faster and with less muscle effort to acheive the same result.
    I think I understand where you are coming from, but that wouldn't be elastic recoil anymore, that one (In Thrusting Salute/Devastation) is an example of a Plyometric contraction. Another very interesting and useful way to generate more energy/acceleration in a rebounding action.
    but it is different.

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    Talking Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by thedan View Post
    Well, sir, this is a good place to do it. There are several very knowlegable posters here who have set me on the right path a few times, and drug my butt back when I stray too much as well. Dr. Crouch is one of them, and we need to drag his butt back from the "West" as he's one of the authorities on this topic.



    Dan C
    Now thats Elastic Recoil

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    Talking Re: Elastic Recoil

    Quote Originally Posted by execkenpo View Post
    Ditto here my friend. I've been involved in kenpo as long as you, though I've hardly the rank you do. I feel like my journey has just begun.
    So do I. Belts are not as important as the CHARACTER of the person who wears it.

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