Results 1 to 16 of 16

Thread: Breaking Your Falls

  1. #1
    karateminister's Avatar
    karateminister is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Amarillo, Texas
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Breaking Your Falls

    I was wondering how many of you teach a proper way to fall.

    I originally learned "Falling Ways A B & C" from my original instructor, Fred Stille. I believe I was learning Chinese Kenpo at the time(Back then I thought, "kenpo is kenpo," So, I never gave it much thought about the kind of Kenpo it was.)

    However, now having gone through most of EPAK and now AKKI, I have not found any formal curriculum on how to fall(I could have just missed it). So, I was wondering how everyone was teaching it? Additional questions could include: When did you start teaching someone how to fall? and What kind of falling did you teach?

    Thanks in Advance,

    Joseph
    Last edited by karateminister; 08-08-2005 at 03:34 AM.

  2. #2
    cloak13's Avatar
    cloak13 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Westminster, MD
    Posts
    68
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    We do a lot with grappling in our school so we go over falling first thing in those classes. But for a student who never came to a grappling class we introduce it in conjunction with Dance of Death. The first technique with a strike down. Both my instructor and I studied Judo and we teach falling in the same way that falling was taught to us there. Now if we only had mats and not hard wood floors that would making falling so much easier

    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

  3. #3
    Alleydog is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Orange Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Westminster, MD
    Posts
    102
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 20 Times in 13 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Joseph,



    Like Tim' stated most of our break fall experience goes back to judo and jujitsu.
    Infiniti Insights does cover it but I donít remember ever going over it in any of the kenpo classes.


    We do cover it with our students but we donít spend tons of time on it till they start sparring. I like the guys to try for take downs, sweeps and ground work while sparring so naturally they need to know how to fall.

    I havenít seen a problem with this informal method but maybe a structured falling curriculum would be better.

    OK, great, now I got to write a falling curriculum for my school. Thanks a lot idea man. LOL



    Yours in Kenpo,

    Mike G

    AKKI Westminster, MD

    P. S Hard wood floors toughen you up.

  4. #4
    S. LaBounty is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    AKI Contributing Member
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    Northern California
    Posts
    31
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 6 Times in 5 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Joseph: I think the answers that the folks in Maryland gave should be are ones that ALL Kenpo instructors should implement. The ground is our best friend when applying techniques with a throw, wind down, reap, etc. or when finding ourselves in a Phase III situation that requires an immediate shift in defense. The ground can be our enemy as well if we don't learn to use body control/position to absorb an unforgiving and unyielding surface. There are many ways and methods of falling and all should be examined. The most prevalent ones being from the Judo/Jutsu systems, can be used continually as the practitioner ages (that would be me!) The Chinese method is a bit rough on the body and takes a lot of practise. Wrestling, i.e. 'catch' wrestling usually is not geared towards surfaces other than mats, and usually doesn't employ high lifts, certain reaps and such, there are exceptions to everything.I think the reason most Kenpo schools don't teach it as an extended program is that most of our techniques of today would only require a basic fall, not the more advanced of the Judo/Jutsu, MMA or Shoot fighters. But in my opinion, it should be a required program in the early stages of ones training. Using Dance of death is a good way to begin..
    In spirit...

    __________________________________________________ _____________
    Theory informs, but hard, realistic practise convinces

  5. #5
    karateminister's Avatar
    karateminister is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Amarillo, Texas
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Thanks to everyone that replied.

    You all confirmed what I felt was happening. Let me ask some more specific questions: Are any of you teaching kenpo without teaching how to fall? Are any of you teaching how to fall without any requirements to do so? Is there a place in the EPAK(or other AK) curriculum which specifically addresses ways to fall?

    When I refer to falling curriculum, I am not viewing it as teaching a technique but rather a basic(like a kick, punch, or block).

    My reason for asking is to investigate whether falling being taught mainly through oral tradition or are we borrowing from other systems? If it is in AK curriculum, where? So far, it seems that we mainly are borrowing.

    Thanks again,

    Joseph

  6. #6
    Hunter's Avatar
    Hunter is offline
    KenpoTalk
    3rd. Brown Belt
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Wichita KS
    Posts
    709
    Thanks
    225
    Thanked 183 Times in 112 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Quote Originally Posted by karateminister

    My reason for asking is to investigate whether falling being taught mainly through oral tradition or are we borrowing from other systems? If it is in AK curriculum, where? So far, it seems that we mainly are borrowing.

    Thanks again,

    Joseph
    When my Grandpa taught me how to "fall," it was through what he had learned in Judo. When as a youngster at an "American Freestyle Karate" school they reinforced the same method my grandpa used of teaching breakfalls. (he got them in the 50s and 60s from a Judoka)

    On that note, I think that all martial good artist borrow, steal, and apply to some extent. Mr. Parker did this from what I have read and heard from some that were there first hand. Finding ideas, concepts, or principles and applying them within the structure of your system can sometimes be aggrivating but can have reward ultimately in your perception of depth.

    In example of this, "break falls" might not be on a belt chart or list of basics in "book 5" or what have you, but I agree with Sigung LaBounty in his statement that "Dance of Death" is a perfect time to introduce them into the structure of the system and the student, even if it is not in the manuals, belt charts, being borrowed or not. You can learn a lot from a dummy (being one on a technique haha)
    www.hunterskarate.com

    "I believe that to have a friend, a man must be one."

    - From the Lone Ranger's Creed




  7. #7
    cloak13's Avatar
    cloak13 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Westminster, MD
    Posts
    68
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Quote Originally Posted by karateminister
    When I refer to falling curriculum, I am not viewing it as teaching a technique but rather a basic(like a kick, punch, or block).
    Check the AKKI green manual. I think it lists rolling as a manuever in green belt. When originally learning the IKKA curriculum we did falling at green belt because we started doing extensions with takedowns there. Basically how we learned to fall was exactly the same thing I learned in Judo. I just attribute my falling experience to Judo because it was then I started jumping over people to practice falling from high up. That was always fun. But then again, I was 19 at the time and absolutely invincible. Now I'm old falling apart.

    Where as I learned rolling from IKKA Kenpo at green I still prefer the Aikido way of teaching rolling. We roll the same way I just like how the information is communicated in Aikido better than the way my old Kenpo instructor showed me.

    Think of this post as an appending to my previous post. I think I didn't say all I wanted to the first time around.

    See ya round,
    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

  8. #8
    phyziksdoc is offline
    KenpoTalk
    White Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Richmond, KY
    Posts
    11
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    I agree with Tim (we had the same IKKA Kenpo instructor). I was okay with falling, but it wasn't until I had studied some Aikido that I felt comfortable with falling. Most likely this results from the different techniques of teaching from one instructor to the next. As Tim pointed out, the technique is the same, it was a matter of how falling was taught to us.

    And Tim... you are not old (this coming from your older brother...)

    Chris Kulp
    Richmond, KY

  9. #9
    Kenpo Yahoo's Avatar
    Kenpo Yahoo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    78
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Hey Tim,

    I've practiced falling and rolling all courtesy of the IKKA, AKKI curriculum, as well as a little BJJ, but I'm curious as to what you mean by the Aikido way. You mentioned that it was more or less the way it was explained or taught rather than the way it was done. I know that these types of explanations can be quite lengthy, but could you maybe provide a little synopsis of what you mean?Just curious.

    I have a buddy that studied aikido for a while so I'll have to check with him as well.

    Thanks

    Hope to see everyone in Vegas

  10. #10
    cloak13's Avatar
    cloak13 is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Westminster, MD
    Posts
    68
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 2 Times in 2 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Sure Yahoo,

    Well with my original Kenpo instructor falling was not very well explained. It was a matter of here's how you do it. Now do it like me. If you think about it though falling is not a super sophisticated motion and I'm sure that is what my old instructor was thinking when he was basically like, "Just regergitate what I'm doing.". Falling was something that we did prior to takedown techniques and kinda kept as something extra we do. In Judo we practiced falling every day from varying heights. We'd warm up with running in place then dropping on command with different break falls. In Kenpo we just fell, in Judo we were always doing something else then just dropping on command. It got me use to the, "anything can happen" mindset. So what if I'm doing a technique perfectly and the guy i don't see comes up from behind and tackles me. I've got to be ready to fall and ready to recover. This method of training really facilitated that mindset and capability.

    Aikido training (traditional Aikido that is) also is a little more different than Kenpo training in general. At least from my perspective. In Kenpo we break the motions down to simple similar motions, in Aikido you learn the entire motion at one time. So a wrist lock with three steps would be shown and learned all three steps at a time. It wasn't a harder way to learn but it was definately a challenge to get use to at first. When it came to rolling though, it got the motions more smooth. In Kenpo it was broken into steps, where as in Aikido it was just, roll. The Aikido aspect really put everything together for me and took my rolls from steps to a single smooth motion.

    Now I work on teaching falling and rolling in those manners. My original Kenpo instructor did great at giving me the foundations but now I've attempting to improve the teaching style a little bit.

    I know that isn't a clear how to guide but it illustrates my thoughts on the manner.

    See ya in Vegas,
    Tim Kulp
    Westminster, MD

  11. #11
    Kenpo Yahoo's Avatar
    Kenpo Yahoo is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Posts
    78
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Like I said, I know it's somewhat difficult to convey the idea and do it justice. I appreciate the explanation.

    Thanks again.

  12. #12
    karateminister's Avatar
    karateminister is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. White Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Amarillo, Texas
    Posts
    30
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 0 Times in 0 Posts

    Thumbs up Re: Breaking Your Falls

    Quote Originally Posted by cloak13
    Check the AKKI green manual. I think it lists rolling as a manuever in green belt. When originally learning the IKKA curriculum we did falling at green belt because we started doing extensions with takedowns there.
    Hey Tim,

    I rechecked my green manuals both IKKA and AKKI...and there they were. Thanks for the heads-up.

    I may not be dead, but sometimes my brain needs a jump-start.

    Joseph

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Posts
    119
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    One of the things about kenpo that's generally overlooked, in terms of one's education, is dummying.

    Practicing techniques, and running technique lines, offers a real education in falling, long before techniques such as Encounter With Danger, or Leap From Danger, formally teach back breakfalls and front rolls. At yellow belt, Grasp of Death puts the attacker on their knees; at orange, there's Dance of Death (back breakfall); Grip of Death (backfall); Crossing Talon (on knees again); Locked Wing (hands and knees); Buckling Branch (drop to knee); Crashing Wings (backfall), and that's just off the top of my head, without considering all the possible inserts and additions (easy places to add takedowns include after the elbow in Deflecting Hammer) and dummy's moves that imply getting ready for takedowns (for example, learning to shift your weight/move your feet and knees to avoid getting your legs ripped up while dummying for Scraping Hooves).

    Moreover, the endings/extensions of kenpo techniques demand a lot out of one's ability to fall down without dying...which seems to be one of the many reasons the endings/extensions often get pooh-poohed.

    Still, I got a bit of an education from Juan Serrano a coupla weeks ago about the difference of aikido breakfalls....charming little set of back-fall, front fall, right side, left side, roll roll do it AGAIN, for about an hour.

    And it hurt.

    But learn to dummy up; when you can, dummy up for somebody who knows the extensions. Believe me, your butt will hit the mat a lot.

    Dummying: it's the other half of the system.

  14. #14
    Les's Avatar
    Les
    Les is offline
    KenpoTalk
    Adv. Yellow Belt
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    England, Europe
    Posts
    80
    Thanks
    0
    Thanked 1 Time in 1 Post

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    One of the students in our club has Ju-jitsu experience to Brown Belt level and every so often he will teach a class on breakfalls etc.

    Dance of Death is a logical place to start of course, but we involve everyone from white belt up.

    Would it be fair to compare hitting the ground correctly with riding a punch? Sort of damage limitation material? Just a thought

    Les
    I'm only here to learn

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Apr 2005
    Location
    Omaha, Nebraska
    Posts
    2,800
    Thanks
    578
    Thanked 1,841 Times in 1,069 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    We start teaching the breakfall and the shoulder roll immediately to our white belts. These are things that will keep them safe during training and also improve confidence and agility, so we start early.

    We expect proficiency in these maneuvers at orange belt. I think our Shaolin Kempo has more takedowns than AK that might be one reason... you guys like to hit them until they fall down, we like to hit them until we can throw them down

  16. #16
    Join Date
    Feb 2005
    Location
    Sarnia, ON, Canada
    Posts
    7,774
    Thanks
    301
    Thanked 1,259 Times in 798 Posts

    Default Re: Breaking Your Falls

    My studensts spend the first four weeks of classes going over basics, basics and more basics. In these basics we teach the front fall, back fall, side fall, front roll, back roll, and shoulder roll. We also use a warm up exercise called Roley - Poleys to start off the class so they get used to the ground right from the beginning.

    Once the student gets used to the ground and lose their fear of falling they are much better off.
    Quality outweighs quantity every time.

Remove Ads

Sponsored Links

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •  

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Search tags for this page (caching method: memcache)

akki brown belt techniques

Click on a term to search our site for related topics.